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Topic: Aricie: Announcing a new trading bots platform - page 3. (Read 18110 times)

newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Just realized one post remained unanswered.

Very nice update and very user friendly - I haven't seen a lot of action yet but BTC prices have been pretty stagnant lately.  Will keep monitoring.  The major change that I have seen is that, unlike the previous MtGox, it has become impossible to make a manual trade at a price that is different than the current one - if it doesn't get executed by the time the new round of API calls are made, the manual trade gets erased.


First about manual trades getting erased. There's no feature doing that on purpose, but there are conditions triggering order cancels, regardless of their origin.
A whole "half band" (all asks or all bids) may be cancelled if:
  • its span (defined by the percentage between the outer order and the central margin limit), is found smaller than the minimum configured width or higher than the maximum configured width
  • the outer order value, multiplied by the "Low resource reset factor" parameter, is found higher than the corresponding available resources (btcs for asks, and usds for bids), which are computed from the total resources from removing the defined reserve and the existing open orders. You can acknowledge those quantities in your history: the last wallet balance gives your total resource, whereas the last issued orders "balance" shows the available resources at the time of the computation. Also, you can remove that "low resource reset" feature by setting that parameter to 0


Additionally, a single order may be cancelled because of the "cancel order limit" percentage parameter. That parameter was meant for exponential price distributions: it makes sure the density keeps decreasing going outwards from the ticker when the price moves: if the variation between 2 consecutive orders spans (Ask(i)-Ask(i-1)/Ask(i-1)-Ask(i-2)) is found lower than this parameter (wrongly increasing density), the outer order is cancelled. Up until recently, I had kept the 90% value, which was meant for the original exponential distribution. Now that the default distribution features a near constant linear span, I switched to 50%, but you may feel free to set that parameter to 0 to completely remove that feature if you don't need it.


Also, based on a previous post, is it fair to assume that the only way to make the bot trade bigger amounts is to increase the balances?

There are several parameters responsible for defining the order amounts:

  • The outer orders are defined as a percentage of the available resources (btcs for highest ask, usds for lowest bid): the corresponding parameter is "Default Max Order(%)". "Default" means that at any point you can update such an outer order manually, making sure you don't trigger an "half band cancel" as explained above
  • Then the inner orders amounts are computed from the corresponding arithmetic expression. The default expression plots a linear variation in value between the outer order value and the central margin boundaries limit, the value of which is also defined as a percentage of the outer order with the "Min Order Value (%)" parameter
  • You may update the dynamic amount expression to your needs, but if you choose to stick with the default value, the constraint mainly resides in the price distribution.
  • If you choose to define a large trading band with many inner orders (as with the current default strategy), you'll have to keep everything pretty low: the bot won't let you issue orders that aren't provisioned, and will fit everything accordingly; also, there is a minimum order on each exchange platform (0.01 btcs on MtGox), which could result in central orders not being issued if you're low on resources. Accordingly, if you want higher amounts, you'll need to issue less orders, by narrowing the band or by changing the order distribution (by choosing a larger or a varying step e.g exponential).
  • One thing to consider though if you change the distribution, is the density near the central margin: As far as I can tell, you can't have both a large order step near the ticker and a narrow central margin, while reliably earning on small oscillations (which honestly I'm starting to consider as negligible considering the all-or-nothing kind of volatility we have). Anyway, in order to get the appropriate behavior with low volatility, you have to make sure the central step is smaller than the configured margin. 
     

I hope all of this makes sense. I understand it may look over-complicated, but it is just the result of identifying the various possibilities over the last months, given a simple algorithm, and making them available to the users.

Now I'm all open to trying something completely different. As a matter of fact, I have added a c# project to the source code, with a simple alternate strategy that shows how to get started. If you think you can come out with something better, please let me know, and I'll be happy to add it to the hosted platform.

The only thing is I'd like to keep the free platform hosting market making bots: I reckon there are quite a few tools that amplify the trends out there, and that providing liquidity should be beneficial to the whole community.
I realize it can be frustrating when given the current strategy, the price variation exceeds the trading band configured for many, resulting in a loss, but I'm sure we can find a compromise where those situations are properly accounted for (for now, I have increased the default band width), and the profit fairly shared among all.

If you're up for a predictive strategy that works with the trend, feel free to go for it and to get your bot a private hosting (which we can provide, and I'll update the source package with a version fully compatible with DNN 6.X shortly). There are good chances you'll want to keep it personal anyway.
Now if you are concerned with price stability, you're more than welcome helping us improving the public platform. As a matter of fact, I don't think there is much "secret" involved with such strategies, which is the reason I made the results public. The gains will reduce only if we're so successful to reduce the volatility substantially, which for many reasons I don't see happening any time soon. 

Finally I should say I won't be able to invest much more in here for free. One possibility is that we propose a commercial version with a faster pace and other enhancements. We're thinking about it.
Also, if you're thinking of an opportunity for a collaboration, please let us know.

Regards,

Jesse
CTO Aricie
full member
Activity: 228
Merit: 100
Now the edit-mode is checked and I have the save-bot button

Thank you very much Smiley

kind regards, talpan
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Thx for the fast reply but as it seems I don't have a "save-bot" button.

And thx again for the good support and this opportunity Smiley

kind regards, talpan


I just checked your account, and as you had previously noted, the "view" option was checked in the top control panel. I just switched your account to "Edit" mode.
I'm sorry you guys get annoyed with that stupid "feature". Edit/View/Design mode are meant for site admins to figure out various renderings while editing the content.
I made the module such that only authorized module editor roles can save a bot instance while simple viewers such as anonymous clients can only browse the configuration. For some reason, module editors get offered that control panel by default, but there's an option to remove that.
Please let me know if you get the Edit mode properly configured now, and I'll remove the control panel for good.

Cheers
full member
Activity: 228
Merit: 100
Thx for the fast reply but as it seems I don't have a "save-bot" button.

And thx again for the good support and this opportunity Smiley

kind regards, talpan
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Hey again,

now it's for sure: I can't edit my bot and there is now view/edit selection in the upper left corner.

Hi Talpan, I tried to hide the control panel in the site settings to remove the confusion, but apparently your user account might have some problem with that thing.
I just reset the default settings, so your should see the control panel again.
Anyway, I will upgrade to the latest DNN version. Hopefully it should fix those kind of bugs.

Regards,

Jesse
full member
Activity: 228
Merit: 100
Hey again,

now it's for sure: I can't edit my bot and there is now view/edit selection in the upper left corner.
full member
Activity: 228
Merit: 100
Hey,

I can't change my bot settings anymore, the "save bot" button isn't there anymore.
thx for keeping this up and running Smiley

sorry, it's my fault: had checked that "view" options in the upper left corner
member
Activity: 90
Merit: 10
Very nice update and very user friendly - I haven't seen a lot of action yet but BTC prices have been pretty stagnant lately.  Will keep monitoring.  The major change that I have seen is that, unlike the previous MtGox, it has become impossible to make a manual trade at a price that is different than the current one - if it doesn't get executed by the time the new round of API calls are made, the manual trade gets erased.

Also, based on a previous post, is it fair to assume that the only way to make the bot trade bigger amounts is to increase the balances?

So far, so good, though - some of the new features are very nice Smiley


Thanks!!!!
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Hi Ken,

the minimum order amount is part of the Exchange parameters: it is the minimum order amount accepted by the exchange (i.e .01 btcs on MtGox and $1 on Tradehill).
Apart from the custom commission, which I made part of your new credentials settings, the exchange parameters are the same for all users.
Accordingly, I chose to remove the corresponding parameter from the set available for customization (but you can still browse a read-only version of it in the bot definition).

As for the number of orders issued, the default strategy was changed, and more specifically the price distribution expressions. This is because the old strategy quickly proved unfitted to the new trading dynamics.
You can have a look at the info page for more details on the recent changes.

Cheers
kdf
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
Hello,

I have switched to the new platform and it seems more user friendly and secure.  But I do have a few questions.  On the old platform you could set the minimum order amount.  So for example it currently has the smallest order at .08 btc.  On the old system I could control what the smallest amount ordered would be.  How do I do that on the new system?

Another question is that with the new system I have about 44 - 51 orders set up on the old system I would have had about 12 - 18 orders at any one time.  I am assuming it is a larger number of orders because the minimum order is so small and that is the starting point.

Thanks for any help someone may be able to give.

Thanks,
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10
Hi,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I think I can see what you are getting at and on reflection, I don't think you can solve the problem using the max(last_price, highest_bid + margin) approach, so that option is probably not worth keeping.

I have also spotted kind of a related problem with the existing version.

During the big bitcoinica spike last week all my close in buy orders were triggered and the price continued to go down, so you start to get bigger and bigger gaps between orders. For example, say I had bids at $6.10 and $5.50 the buy at $6.10 was triggered, and the price went down to $5.60 and stayed at a similar level.

Based on the last price, the bot would generate sell orders down to $5.60 plus margin, so you could end up buying at $6.10 then selling at $5.65.

I think looking at previous executed orders is going to be the best long-term solution, so its good to hear that it is in the pipeline. You guys are doing great work!
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0

To get the profit margin that you have set in the parameters, the bot could use something like

MAX(last_price, highest_bid * 1 + (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for asks and

MIN(last_price, lowest_ask * 1 - (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for bids

As it is I have had to set the trading fees and profit margin much higher to compensate.

Hi again,

I am about to upgrade the platform, and while I have tested your suggestion, it seems to make it worse: If you set a full margin on the existing highest_bid for the new lowest_ask, that margin  is "removed" when the bid gets executed, and depending on the other parameters, you find yourself at best with the previous half margin formula, and at worse with a new ask lower than the previously highest bid.

Anyway, I'm making it an optional parameter so that you can do you own tests with your bot.

In any case, I couldn't think of a satisfactory solution, without looking up the previously executed orders, which is not planned for this release, preventing the bot from placing orders out of phase with small oscillations as those occurring right now (placing asks on lows and bids on highs). Given the way the new orders fill the left "holes" in the distribution, it's currently a matter of chance that those holes correspond to the highs or lows of the oscillations.

In the mean time, I believe that securing a comfortable margin fixes that issue, and that the other fixes should bring an improvement (like the one preventing several series of orders of the same kind to be issued)

Let me know if you can think of a possible improvement.

Cheers
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Hi,

I've been using your bot for a couple of months and I have a question. Is it possible to change the code so that the gap between bids and asks is always at least 2 * (profit_margin + trading_fee).

For example, at the moment you might have a highest bid of 6.399 and the last price is 6.40. At this point, (if I understand correctly) the bot will generate asks down to 6.40 + profit_margin + trading_fee.

If we assume the trading fees are 0.5% and the profit margin is also 0.5%, the lowest ask could be at 6.464.

This means that the gap between bids and asks is too small. If the bot then executes a buy at 6.399 it could sell at 6.464 which after fees is 0.015% profit instead of the 0.5% specified. If your profit margin is set to less than the trading fees, you would be trading at a loss.

To get the profit margin that you have set in the parameters, the bot could use something like

MAX(last_price, highest_bid * 1 + (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for asks and

MIN(last_price, lowest_ask * 1 - (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for bids

As it is I have had to set the trading fees and profit margin much higher to compensate.

Hi Pteppic,

I think your remark is valid, and so is the fact that we should avoid the same kind of orders being issued and executed several times in a row when the price spikes before returning to the previous value between successive bot runs.

I'll take both issues in account in the updated version to come, but in the mean time I highly suggest that indeed you take a comfortable margin, and you adjust your outer orders manually when needed.

Regards
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Got this email from mt gox:

 You are currently making use of a system which will be deprecated on Thu 01 Mar 2012 12:00:00 AM GMT:

Access of the MtGox API while being authenticated with a login and a password


So does this mean the bot wont work anymore after march?


Hi evolve,

The legacy API is indeed scheduled to be deprecated on the  01st March, which means the current bot will be stopped by that date.
In the mean time, I have a new version of the platform nearly ready for updates, which takes an API key and secret as generated from your MtGox account for additional parameters and accordingly supports the new API.
The update is a bit tricky since a lot of things have changed in the underlying bot engine, and as all your parameters are stored compressed and encrypted I must make sure I won't loose anything. I might have to reset user strategies though, because of a few fixes in the trading algorithm. 
I'll send a bulk email to let all users know about the update when it's ready, and then you should have plenty of time to generate API keys from your account, stop your legacy bot and register a new bot with the additional parameters.

Regards,

Jesse
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10
Hi,

I've been using your bot for a couple of months and I have a question. Is it possible to change the code so that the gap between bids and asks is always at least 2 * (profit_margin + trading_fee).

For example, at the moment you might have a highest bid of 6.399 and the last price is 6.40. At this point, (if I understand correctly) the bot will generate asks down to 6.40 + profit_margin + trading_fee.

If we assume the trading fees are 0.5% and the profit margin is also 0.5%, the lowest ask could be at 6.464.

This means that the gap between bids and asks is too small. If the bot then executes a buy at 6.399 it could sell at 6.464 which after fees is 0.015% profit instead of the 0.5% specified. If your profit margin is set to less than the trading fees, you would be trading at a loss.

To get the profit margin that you have set in the parameters, the bot could use something like

MAX(last_price, highest_bid * 1 + (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for asks and

MIN(last_price, lowest_ask * 1 - (2 * profit_margin + 2 * trading_fee)) for bids

As it is I have had to set the trading fees and profit margin much higher to compensate.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
Got this email from mt gox:

 You are currently making use of a system which will be deprecated on Thu 01 Mar 2012 12:00:00 AM GMT:

Access of the MtGox API while being authenticated with a login and a password


So does this mean the bot wont work anymore after march?
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
Thank you for your reply, Jesse!

Sounds like serious changes and steps forward, am curious how it will turn out!
Thank you for the pointer about the expressions, will wrap my head around them.

A general question: It seems like the bots can only analyze "now", and not use data from the future past? Something like "average price of the last 6 hours"?

Thank you again,

Ente
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Hi Ente,

thanks for your interest.

First, I'm planning an update of the platform soon, to support the new Mt.Gox API, and fixing a few things in the engine and in the strategy.
Now about the parameters available in the code expressions, they're all simple properties from .Net types, which you can browse together with the trading source code.
As for providing something simpler, I'll see what I can do when the next upgrade is done.

Cheers,

Jesse
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
Hi Jesse,

I just found your platform today.
I am a lot interested in it, thank you for making it public and free to use!

Now I am a bit confused about the bot parameters themselves..
In no way I am an experienced trader. But I would think there are several different trading strategies, which base on totally different triggers.
Looking around in my account, I find a lot of parameters, which are spread over many (sub-) pages and which impose one trading strategy on me. Granted, I dont understand that strategy in full detail yet.

I would love the option to start from scratch. Like two empty textboxes, one for "buy" and one for "sell". I would have to script everything by myself, like "add 0.65% on top of it" and the like. With that I could do silly things like "buy every day at noon, sell at 3pm" as well as more complex things.
I would not even be sure if such an option would be "basic" or "advanced" ;-)

Is there a referencelist? What exactly do the keywords mean, how are they calculated, which do exist? Like "LimitOrderValueRate", "CurrentOrders.HighestAsk.Value" etc?

I just had a quick look around, but for now I am a bit shorttaken by the dozens of subwindows, options, keywords and the like.


Thank you for that project, I am astonished its not the biggest topic since the reappearing of Satoshi!

Ente
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
Thank you for all your improvements.  Can you check to see if the platform is down?  Everything was working perfectly but now I have no orders in MtGox.

Yep, the server was messing again. Should be working now.
A migration to our new web farm is planned for next week.
Hopefully the site will get faster and more stable, such that I can increase the schedule frequency again.
Cheers
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