Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1074. (Read 3917543 times)

You guys are looking at this all wrong.

Assume 2.5BTC/Share and 0.035 dividends.
Lets say only have enough to buy .8 of a share and tomorrow is Wednesday. Do I just let 2BTC sit around doing nothing? No. This is where the genius of TAT comes in. I get 80 TAT shares and when dividends hit I get 0.028-5%=0.0266 more BTC then I would have had. Now I'm a little closer to buying a whole share. The fee means very little because if TAT wasn't around I'd just have the BTC sitting there.

TL;DR Make BTC work for you, not the other way around.

Just bought some shares. Thanks for all the info you write here 

I use Thieves excellent work for an exchange and until it hits the board member seat would not support a drain of shares from the fund it was in the release announcement and makes perfect sense, it even provides investor incentive if you read the prospectus. That said you all seem to be missing a key point
The Arbitrage is generally bigger than the dividend between these two exchanges even on btct
A position with a slightly lower cost than the main one can cover and even surpass the dividend compared to that of a full share
Also the cost of entry is the same if you don't like a 5% dividend cut just jump the exchanges on dividends until the gap is too small to make that profitable
Two cents

Yes, I made the same point. Saying a security isn't trustworthy, when it is completely up front about its fees and convertibility of shares, is ridiculous.

the point is, he set up the PT with the fee, and we (anyone who bought it - i have 28 shares of his) accepted the arrangement. anything else is pointless to discuss, because it's already happened.

.double.

a conventional mutual fund manages billions are dollars worth of assets. If TAT gets to 5000 shares, he has 1-2m worth of assets. He also has way more risk than a conventional mutual fund. I think 5% (of DIVIDENDS not net assets) is completely reasonable, but if you don't start your own fund.

I agree. Dividends on 5000 shares * 0.05 is basically full dividends on 250 shares, which is like 200 btc per year (@ 0.015 / week). Thats a lot of overhead for like 1-2k USD per month.

If we look at conventional Mutual Funds, a 5% management fee would be killer. In fact 2% is really a lot, and 1% or less is really desirable for assets that are held long.

Let's use TAT's example of high dividends of 0.036/week for 2 years.

For AM-PT
Earned 0.036/week * 52 wks/yr * 2 yrs = 3.744
Original cost = 2.5 BTC
Profit = 3.744 - 2.5 = 1.244

For TAT
Earned (95% * 0.036/week) * 52 wks/kr * 2 yrs = 3.5568
Original cost = 2.45 BTC
Profit = 3.5568 - 2.45 = 1.1068

Difference = 0.1372 BTC (or $16 in today's rate)

Whether 0.1372 BTC is a lot for you depends on your own judgment, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But if you had 10 shares, or 100 shares, you can multiply that out and see we would now be talking about $167 to $1674 difference!

1) TAT now represents a lot (hundreds?) of shareholders. I'm sure most of those people would prefer that he gets a board seat. He's been up front about that goal the whole time.
2) If you want direct shares, sell your TAT shares, buy burnside shares, and transfer them. Or even better, just buy direct shares up front, they are typically a little cheaper since liquidity is worse.
3) You should base your trust on history, not on conditions that you would be willingly agreeing to when buying the security but which you don't like.

You are welcome to your own interpretation, but I have to warn you that thinking one layer deep is why some people make less money than others. Your example completely ignores my point.

Regarding my security, what do you find lacking?

What I'm saying is that my income from dividend fees is very very small.

Sorry are you saying you're not making a profit at all? Not even breaking even? You must be. I'd be worried if you weren't.

TAT - Had to reply to your (terrible) example.

If direct (or PT) divs = 100 BTC
Then TAT divs =           95 BTC

an example should be simple and illustrate a point.
Meanwhile, what I mean is that I don't trust your security. You're the one who has to make me trust you, not the opposite.
No transfer to direct shares = no trusting the security.

There are many people that own thousands of TAT.AM. I'd like to run through an example for you, in order to show how small 5% of dividends is as a fee.

Okay, let's assume you want to buy 1 whole-share. In this example, the best price is, say, ฿2.5

Also, let's say the best TAT.AM price at the same time is ฿0.0245 (roughly 1% cheaper), making your total cost ฿2.45 for the equivaleny 100 shares.

Now, let's assume that dividends will be .036 for the next 3 months (this is definitely NOT guaranteed), which would get you a total of ฿0.46764 with your 1 whole-shares (or 100 TAT.AM shares).

If you owned TAT.AM, your 5% mgmt fee would total ฿0.023382 in that 3 months (about $2.86).

Total profit from whole-share: .46764 - 2.5 = ฿-2.03236
Total profit from TAT.AM shares: .46764 - 2.45 - 0.023382  = ฿-2.005742

So even after 3 months of very high dividends, and only paying 1% less for your TAT.AM shares, you are still doing better by 0.026618, which is MORE than I would have collected in fees in 3 months.

The point of this exercise is to show two things. First, that 5% of dividends is a pittance as far as management fees go. My liability of holding these assets in the passthrough is astronomical in comparison. Second, you must do the math to figure out whether the fee will ever affect you. If your goal is to flip the shares in 3-6 months, then the fee is barely a consideration. If you plan to hold shares for a year, then you need to calculate what you are paying for the shares, and what you think dividends will realistically be in that year, to see what the best choice is.

Regarding the inability to export/import shares. I have explained elsewhere that I have good reasons for this. First, I want to get board seat status, so exporting shares is counterproductive to that goal. Second, I want to make Friedcat's life easier and respect that he doesn't need hundreds of requests from me for people trying to convert TAT.AM shares into a handful of whole-shares every week. I might add import/export as a feature in the future, but if I do, there will be quantity minimums, just like the other PTs.

With my PT you also get someone that is dedicated to customer service, security, and transparency of share ownership. To my knowledge, these are not offered by all the passthroughs to the degree in which I provide them.

Thanks for listening!

Allows you to buy 1/100th shares to at least get a piece of asicminer... not everyone has 2.5 BTC or so to buy a share... but guess what now you can buy partial shares, then re-invest the dividends in more TAT-ASICminer shares, and grow your portfolio:-) Hey maybe if you keep saving/re-investing your dividends you can sell enough TAT shares to buy a full share of Burnsides...

I have 11 shares of asicminer-pt AND 44 shares of TAT-asicminer... works fine for me. I don't mind the 5% of dividends taken at all... you could always save your BTC and buy a bunch of asicminer shares and do your own pass-through... and if you want you could charge 4% And people might buy them!

....or you could just complain on a forum

I love this place!!

EDIT... sorry to be a little snarky...but when someone provides a nice service and doesn't charge exorbitant fees I feel obliged to defend them and support them with my BTC

TAT: Good for dividend reinvestment. Expensive fee on the dividends compared to ASICMINER-PT to be sure, but only 1/100th the cost to get in to the security, making ASICminer available to far more people, and opening up dividend reinvestment to more people as well. Also good for the occasional arbitrage opportunities that show up between the full PT and themselves.  I currently have <100 shares there, which I think is the right number, and the best place for dividends to accumulate at this time.  More than 100 gets swapped up to the full PT when the sell/purch ratios between the two are right.

TAT: Takes 5% of profits + does NOT let you convert into Direct shares.
I'm staying the hell away from that one.

ASICMINER-PT: no tax on divs, can convert to direct share, Burnside is more than a name (he runs the best known BTC exchange: https://btct.co/)
only issue is you need to pay 2.5BTC to buy one share nowadays... But there is more security, dividends and flexibility in the long and the short run.


*Edit* I'm stating facts, if you're happy with it good for you. I think a 1/100th share is a great idea, but not with the current TAT setup.
Plenty of people seem to have chanted the coming of a certain pirateat40 in the past, only to get burnt afterwards (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102079.160) - in a digital world with money involved, I'd be weary of what I invest in. And I think cautious advice is a mean well advice, I'm not here to trash the share - I like the idea but the terms don't work currently.

TAT, if you offered the opportunity to exchange for direct shares, that would be a great first step IMO.

Yah dude, TAT is awesome at only 5% of the dividends. Try not to misguide.

That is an incorrect oversimplification. But yes, one should read the prospectus of each asset carefully before purchasing.