Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1139. (Read 3917568 times)

If you think it'll still be 12 TH/s in a week, sell

Right... listing AM on MPEX makes it legitimate...    I still don't know why I haven't ignored your posts. I think I like how idiotic you can be.

Meanwhile hashrate slowly declines :-( (12.17 TH/s)

+1

As opposed to holding dust on an exchange that is, equally, dust.

Awesome job TAT, glad to see this up!

Dont feel bad about the shameless plug, MPOE-PR did it 2 posts above you while trying to make a point.

I completely agree with you

yes, I completely agree with you on this.  I was merely stating that more information would be good for me.  I am not entitled to it, though I did request it (asked a question).  It's not owed to us, but it would be nice to have.

To anyone that is interested, I have gone live with a new fractional passthrough of ASICMINER shares.

You can learn more about how it works and why someone might be interested here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitfunder-tatasicminer-new-micro-share-passthrough-192498

You can buy the shares on Bitfunder here: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.ASICMINER

While I think this is relevant to this thread, it's possible I am biased and some of you will be angered at this "shameless self-promotion". If so, you can take comfort in knowing that I will pay the price in hell upon my day of reckoning.

yeah, I agree, but that's where the whole "knowing what the plan is" thing comes into play.  Did they not know they were going to invest that money a week ago? 

I am not using the dividend amount to value the company.  I was using the amount of profits to estimate the weekly dividend. 

Why is this important to me?  Because I use dividends to buy more shares!

An actual contract (such as), their listing on a reputable exchange (such as), actual monthly reports (such as). Without these you are basically holding dust, like it or not.

(No, the fact that "it paid already X dollah" is not necessarily an argument - so did pirate.)

My last post was actually in response to another post.. so strawment and slippery slopes doesn’t make sense here.

As for the information you want, great, who wouldn’t want to know all of those fine details?

I will be satisfied as long as you realize NONE of this information is OWED to you.  There is no debt.  As long as you realize all these shares represent is equity in this project, than great.

BitFountain in the company.  Friedcat raised money for this project.. called ASICMINER.  He repaid that money fully.  Those shares still retained equity in the company after they were repaid in full.  The profit from this project is paid out in dividends to those shares of equity.

This asset is really simple people.  Its not the same as a common share of a publicly traded company.

You are thinking far too short term.  AM not paying that dividend does not mean AM is worth less.  They still have the money, and even better than that, they are investing it for you.  Now rather than having the money in your account, the company is worth a bit more.

The only realistic way to evaluate a company is *not* dividends.  Both Amazon and Berkshire pay no dividends, but have among the highest returns of any investment over the last 10 years.  The way to evaluate a company is to look at what they are *earning,* not what their shareholders are getting.  The companies earnings are all public knowledge.

basically, to know ahead of time whether or not profits from this week will be included in next week's dividend.

Based on the information we received last week, we were all expecting to receive a larger dividend, due to the auction and the increased hash rate.  It would have been nice ahead of time to know that those profits were not going to be included in the dividend payment this week.  I made the mistake of assuming that more profits = larger dividend, based on the information I had received.

Again, this isn't the end of the world, and it certainly isn't cause for me to sell shares, but that kind of information would have been appreciated by shareholders like me.

Again, strawmen and slippery slopes usually don't make for good arguments. I believe at least my request was very clear; I explicitly do not want to know what friedcat has for dinner every day.

I would love to know

1. What are the two-three month perspective on hashrate, earnings, and profitability
2. What are the funding requirements to reach those goals and how will that funding take place?
3. What is the current financial situation of the company (ie assets, liabilities, running costs, currency denominations, and so on)
4. What is the policy on managing capital (ie is it exchanged every week, do they set aside capital for unforeseen expenses, etc)

Nobody is asking for any excruciating detail, least of all on a daily basis. I'd be fine with far less frequent updates that we're already getting.

In fact, if it boils down to it, I really want to know just one thing, once a month: Is the operation going according to your plans? If the answer is yes, fine, if the answer is no, I would like to know that there is a plan to mitigate the issues. I don't even care what those plans are, I trust them to know far more about what to do than I could know. They can prove the plan's success by answering "Yes" to the same question next month or two months down the line if that's how long it takes to resolve whatever issues there are.

.b

How much more information do you need to determine risk and what you would be willing to pay for an equity share?  You know how much hashing power there has, you know the bitcoin address that receives the bitcoins from the pool, you can see how much is received thus generally derive how much profit there is once a reasonable cost is established (look at past dividend payments).  Friedcat does a great job giving us estimates as to when deployment will happen (it appears much is unknown to him as well).  He does an excellent job communicating and upholding his own deadlines.  He has explained deployment stages, and always revisits them to give an update.  Deployment is not a perfectly predictable thing as he has run into issues in the past.  He explains when auctions will happen, and has just updated that USB sticks are going to begin being massed produced.  He explains when costs are incurred from week to week as well

This ASICMINER project is unbelievably transparent in my opinoin.  What else are you seriously looking for?

If you feel like all this information is not sufficient do not buy the shares if you feel the risk is too great.  Don’t buy shares and then come here and beg for Friedcat to specifically lay out in excruciating detail what will happen every single day for the upcoming weeks.

That is not true.  More information for you is also more information for competitors.

To summarize what is known:
1. AM may have upwards of 200TH/s on order, although this is not confirmed.  They also have agreements in place such that they could order substantially more.
2. AM has in their possession 62 TH/s of AM 10GH/s blades ready to deploy, minus what has been sold so far(0.6TH/s).
3. 13 TH/s is deployed, with 2 more TH/s estimated to be deployed tonight(by tomorrow morning for those of us in America).
4. Of the remaining 48 TH/s, at least 50% will be deployed for AM hashing.  Some undetermined percentage of the remainder will be sold.
5. The company has a philosophy of around 50% reinvestment in the company, and 50% dividend payouts, which means AM likely has a lot more future ahead of it.
6. The order(?) or production of the USB miners has begun, and AM has reserved substantial funds to pay for it and integrated circuits as needed for deployment.

That is what is known.  I daresay you should be able to use that to evaluate AM's value yourself.  Worst case, you can use prices from the most recent auctions to evaluate AM's true value, and estimate for yourself the future value based on the above & Friedcat's statements.

Did you know what you were getting into a few months after Microsoft was founded?


Of course not. But if you have read this thread, you will realize that the more they deliver, the more is demanded from them. The questions have already been asked, and the difficulties in answering them are crystal clear. The crowd is getting impatient because the stakes are getting higher, but they did get higher exactly because of Bitfountain's pragmatic approach in the first place.


I wish more people realized this.

I think the problem here is patience.  Everyone in the Bitcoin world is used to things moving at lightning speed.  After all the rise from 15 to 266 took less than 90 days, and the crash took only hours.  AM's first 3TH deployment happened ridiculously fast.  The latest rise from 8.0TH/s to 13TH/s happened ridiculously fast.

But the real world doesn't work that way.  The reason there was such a delay at 6.5/7 TH/s is because the real world moves slowly- on the order of weeks, months, and years.  100 years ago, the world moved even slower- DECADES, not months.

Expecting to go from lemonade stand to Microsoft in weeks is just not reasonable.  The complaints raised are absolutely valid, the timelines they are expected under are not- a proper corporate structure takes months to years.  These are all things that Friedcat is aware of as well.

My opinion is this- I don't mean to come down so hard on furuknap because he simply represents a larger problem, a problem that consumes the vast majority of companies.  This problem is shareholders wanting info, results, and profits, and wanting them *NOW*.  This leads to executives who curtow to shareholder whims, delivering quarterly results at the expense of long term planning.

Realistically speaking, AM is more open and communicative to shareholders than virtually any other company.  Weekly updates?  Details on internal workings and long term plans, often months ahead of time(200TH/s announcement, 50TH/s dates, blade sales info, USB miner info, etc)?  And yet you want more?  Moreover, because all shareholders have access to this information, *all* competitors have access to this information as well.  And you want *more* information?

The biggest and best companies out there all have made a habit- Ignoring shareholder short term wants.  Amazon, Apple, Google... Do you think they give a crap about shareholder quarterly demands?  Nope.  They care about the customers' wants, and the long term planning of the company.  Shareholders buy the company *because* they have do a good job, not because the CEO's convinced the shareholders he was going to do good.

So all that said, we should come up with a list of our requests for Friedcat in a single place.  That way it is easy for him to read, easy for us to track, and easy for him to respond.

I have started a spreadsheet with three requests here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiOjtcD8SdisdEJ6MXcwZHdnZVV1YjhvQ1dNTnVwMUE&usp=sharing

Please keep reasonable timelines(months or years for large projects), and ensure that the request you are making is actually important- Friedcat's time as well as AM's time is on a premium right now due to the deployment and sales.

How do you determine the risk without having information to base that decision on?

I asked for more information after last week's update, and I got a similar response from fellow shareholders.  More information is not a bad thing, guys.  It is not an attack on Friedcat or AM to request details on what is planned for the next few weeks.  It would have been nice to know we weren't going to get the profits from the last auction.

Am I saying Friedcat is a bad guy because of this? no.  Do I think less of AM because of it?  no.  Do I deserve it as some sort of special entitlement? no.

I'm just saying it WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE to know what was going on beforehand.  Is that really too much to ask?

It looks like we are hitting the additional 7.5 TH/s as promised, and that's wonderful news!  Personally, I'd like to know what the plan is for the coming weeks, both on deployment and auctions.  

If Friedcat is too busy to communicate with shareholders, I completely understand. Is there anyone else in the company that can participate in the communications and updates?  I'd be happy to help develop a website/place for official updates and information.