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Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1170. (Read 3917543 times)

sr. member
Activity: 362
Merit: 250
Instead of throwing around percentages with little basis, I believe it is better to think in terms of net present value:

First step: make a forecast of difficulty.
Second step: make the choice: if (current price that a miner can be sold for) > (forecasted net present value of the mining profit from the miner), then SELL IT.

Of course, this relies on forecasting difficulty somewhat accurately. More importantly, if there are currently space/power limitations on deploying the miners, it is very likely that the choice of selling a large amount of miners immediately is the most profitable one.

With some more numbercrunching, one could also work with a probability distribution around the forecasted difficulty, and use portfolio theory to hit the risk/reward sweet spot.

Well, my point is that there's sure to be a perfect ratio that would generate maximum profit at any given point in time, and I'm pretty sure that, until all other ASIC manufacturers get up to speed, mining in the short term at much higher than 10% of global hashrate is better since difficulty is lower now than it will be in the future, and we seem to have a definitive leg up on the other manufacturers... but I have no idea what the optimal ratio actually is today, let alone in the future. It is, after all, a moving target... you're absolutely right that it depends entirely on total global hashrate (i.e. difficulty) and cost for devices per TH/s in the open market versus the going exchange rate for fiat. If BTC goes either up or down in value versus fiat, that will affect the optimal ratio of mining to selling by AM, as the prices people are willing to pay for devices, even in BTC, is affected by how valuable the BTC being generated are against their preferred fiat. If exchange rates are flat and hardware is not due for a generational update (as in changing the die size to a smaller process width), then it makes more sense to sell shovels. But, if we have a leg up in technology, it makes sense to keep that new technology (the "new shovels", so to speak) to ourselves until someone else comes out with a good competing product, while unloading the old shovels to the market. Only when there's a balance of power should we primarily focus on selling shovels, since the effect of our own addition to the hashrate would be balanced by the other manufacturers. Whenever we have the advantage, we displace our own in-house shovels with the new ones until it makes more sense to sell them, since our addition would have a greater effect on the difficulty levels and we would be the only ones able to take advantage. You are also very much correct when it comes to physical capacity, since we can't mine if there's no juice/space/cooling to run the machines. Smiley But I see that as an exception to the formula given the amount of space contracted recently.

I think this is mostly a time-to-market problem, really. The faster we can get the new shovels to market compared to the other ASIC manufacturers, the more we should hold back sales to be able to use them ourselves and to encourage the highest prices possible for the new shovels that we *do* sell. And, to circle around to my original point, if we commit to a certain percentage of the global hashrate, we have an advantage against the other manufacturers (on the basis of hardware sales) on two fronts: establishing market trust in the ability to deliver quality goods (we mine with our own shovels, after all) and stability in supply because everyone knows we're not only transparent about how many we're keeping for ourselves, but we're also depending on our development of new technology for our own mining efforts, meaning that we are going to push the envelope for our own good (which translates to the good of the buyers as well.) This is in the same general spirit as the Ferrari model, where if global demand for a car is 10,000 per year, they make 9,999 of them and command top dollar.

You may be right, but I think you are overthinking it. For instance, the BTC exchange rate is of little importance, since the choice is between mining and selling - both of which are paid in BTC.

After you have a difficulty forecast, you easily estimate many BTC a particular device will generate over its lifetime, for example, 50 BTC. Then say someone is willing to buy the device for 55 BTC. What do you do? Sell it, of course - you'll make more money!

And you can simply repeat this procedure for every device until the highest of the two values is below the marginal cost of producing the miner - at that point production is no longer profitable.

Of course some of the profit needs to go to R&D for next generation technology, but even then the basic principle remains the same. And you have to be good at forecasting difficulty and always keep the forecast up-to-date. And you need to know how much people are willing to pay for the devices. I assume AM has a difficulty forecast, and with the recent auction, AM has also learned more about what people are willing to pay for the devices.

PS: Even if your mining earnings estimate for the device is 50 BTC and someone is willing to buy it at 50 BTC, you should sell - because having 50 BTC in your wallet.dat today is much better than maybe having 50 BTC at some point in the future (because you eliminate uncertainty and you may re-invest it the 50 BTC from the sale).
sr. member
Activity: 356
Merit: 255
Instead of throwing around percentages with little basis, I believe it is better to think in terms of net present value:

First step: make a forecast of difficulty.
Second step: make the choice: if (current price that a miner can be sold for) > (forecasted net present value of the mining profit from the miner), then SELL IT.

Of course, this relies on forecasting difficulty somewhat accurately. More importantly, if there are currently space/power limitations on deploying the miners, it is very likely that the choice of selling a large amount of miners immediately is the most profitable one.

With some more numbercrunching, one could also work with a probability distribution around the forecasted difficulty, and use portfolio theory to hit the risk/reward sweet spot.

Well, my point is that there's sure to be a perfect ratio that would generate maximum profit at any given point in time, and I'm pretty sure that, until all other ASIC manufacturers get up to speed, mining in the short term at much higher than 10% of global hashrate is better since difficulty is lower now than it will be in the future, and we seem to have a definitive leg up on the other manufacturers... but I have no idea what the optimal ratio actually is today, let alone in the future. It is, after all, a moving target... you're absolutely right that it depends entirely on total global hashrate (i.e. difficulty) and cost for devices per TH/s in the open market versus the going exchange rate for fiat. If BTC goes either up or down in value versus fiat, that will affect the optimal ratio of mining to selling by AM, as the prices people are willing to pay for devices, even in BTC, is affected by how valuable the BTC being generated are against their preferred fiat. If exchange rates are flat and hardware is not due for a generational update (as in changing the die size to a smaller process width), then it makes more sense to sell shovels. But, if we have a leg up in technology, it makes sense to keep that new technology (the "new shovels", so to speak) to ourselves until someone else comes out with a good competing product, while unloading the old shovels to the market. Only when there's a balance of power should we primarily focus on selling shovels, since the effect of our own addition to the hashrate would be balanced by the other manufacturers. Whenever we have the advantage, we displace our own in-house shovels with the new ones until it makes more sense to sell them, since our addition would have a greater effect on the difficulty levels and we would be the only ones able to take advantage. You are also very much correct when it comes to physical capacity, since we can't mine if there's no juice/space/cooling to run the machines. Smiley But I see that as an exception to the formula given the amount of space contracted recently.

I think this is mostly a time-to-market problem, really. The faster we can get the new shovels to market compared to the other ASIC manufacturers, the more we should hold back sales to be able to use them ourselves and to encourage the highest prices possible for the new shovels that we *do* sell. And, to circle around to my original point, if we commit to a certain percentage of the global hashrate, we have an advantage against the other manufacturers (on the basis of hardware sales) on two fronts: establishing market trust in the ability to deliver quality goods (we mine with our own shovels, after all) and stability in supply because everyone knows we're not only transparent about how many we're keeping for ourselves, but we're also depending on our development of new technology for our own mining efforts, meaning that we are going to push the envelope for our own good (which translates to the good of the buyers as well.) This is in the same general spirit as the Ferrari model, where if global demand for a car is 10,000 per year, they make 9,999 of them and command top dollar.
hero member
Activity: 499
Merit: 500
Quote from: talnted link=topic=99497.msg1914613#msg1914613

This thread is not the place.  Its already clogged up with too much commentary, making it very difficult to follow actual asicminer project developements.

Surely that would have been the perfect place to post a link to your new thread where you enlighten us ignorami.   
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
www.bitcoingem.com
I hope they start using other pools asap.

If we don't start getting more hashing power online soon, it won't matter which pool we use.

You are absolutely clueless about what's going on, aren't you?

Obviously  .  How about instead of passing out insults you educate all of us?     

This thread is not the place.  Its already clogged up with too much commentary, making it very difficult to follow actual asicminer project developements.
hero member
Activity: 499
Merit: 500
I hope they start using other pools asap.

If we don't start getting more hashing power online soon, it won't matter which pool we use.

You are absolutely clueless about what's going on, aren't you?

Obviously  .  How about instead of passing out insults you educate all of us?     
sr. member
Activity: 362
Merit: 250
Instead of throwing around percentages with little basis, I believe it is better to think in terms of net present value:

First step: make a forecast of difficulty.
Second step: make the choice: if (current price that a miner can be sold for) > (forecasted net present value of the mining profit from the miner), then SELL IT.

Of course, this relies on forecasting difficulty somewhat accurately. More importantly, if there are currently space/power limitations on deploying the miners, it is very likely that the choice of selling a large amount of miners immediately is the most profitable one.

With some more numbercrunching, one could also work with a probability distribution around the forecasted difficulty, and use portfolio theory to hit the risk/reward sweet spot.

I think a good way to get the best of both worlds is to commit to attempt to maintain a set percentage of the global hashrate, and sell the excess. (Say, 20%... I'm not really a fan of the 10% idea, that seems pretty low given the very small number of ASIC players that are publicly known, and by the end of the year, ASICs will control over 90% of the hashrate, if not sooner.) That way, shareholders have a predictable income stream from hashing, and purchasers of devices would know that their devices aren't going to be undercut by AM in any unknown way... pricing of devices would be stabilized (good for purchasers, which should increase demand for devices with better known values of return versus the competition with unknown levels of self-mining), and the only real cause of an individual miner's profit rate decline would then be the global hashrate growth, same as it has been historically.

If the AM share of global hashrate approaches 25%, priority shifts to sales to get it down to 20% for the benefit of device sales... if it goes to 15%, it shifts more to mining. (20% is just a number in my head, I'm sure there's a statistical sweet spot that someone can calculate... perhaps it really is 10%, I dunno.)

Why 25%? Why not 45% (To remain under 50% and the variance of networkhashrate around this). I think Asicminer now is in the best position of all producers. They can buy for low money many chips. Seeable from the lower dividends. Not much lost. They seems to have created a workflow that will lead to fast deployment. That means they can create new hashpower very fast. Probably faster than any other. Even Avalon with the selling of their Asicchips and the DIY-Miner wont be able to outbid this fast i believe.

So then, when reaching the 45% border, Asicminer could start to sell Miners. Maybe buy 1000TH, remain 750TH to hold the 45% and sell the rest in form of miners. Maybe more to take the customers from the other companies away (Mean, i know...) This way its possible to get the earnings of some months mining in a moment so that the real earnings are going above 50% without waking fear of the people about a >50% attack.

At the moment i dont see a company or concept that could beat Asicminer. At least from the infos available.
...
If only... the datacenter would be ready with proper power and network so that Asicminer could play out its power... Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile
I think a good way to get the best of both worlds is to commit to attempt to maintain a set percentage of the global hashrate, and sell the excess. (Say, 20%... I'm not really a fan of the 10% idea, that seems pretty low given the very small number of ASIC players that are publicly known, and by the end of the year, ASICs will control over 90% of the hashrate, if not sooner.) That way, shareholders have a predictable income stream from hashing, and purchasers of devices would know that their devices aren't going to be undercut by AM in any unknown way... pricing of devices would be stabilized (good for purchasers, which should increase demand for devices with better known values of return versus the competition with unknown levels of self-mining), and the only real cause of an individual miner's profit rate decline would then be the global hashrate growth, same as it has been historically.

If the AM share of global hashrate approaches 25%, priority shifts to sales to get it down to 20% for the benefit of device sales... if it goes to 15%, it shifts more to mining. (20% is just a number in my head, I'm sure there's a statistical sweet spot that someone can calculate... perhaps it really is 10%, I dunno.)

Why 25%? Why not 45% (To remain under 50% and the variance of networkhashrate around this). I think Asicminer now is in the best position of all producers. They can buy for low money many chips. Seeable from the lower dividends. Not much lost. They seems to have created a workflow that will lead to fast deployment. That means they can create new hashpower very fast. Probably faster than any other. Even Avalon with the selling of their Asicchips and the DIY-Miner wont be able to outbid this fast i believe.

So then, when reaching the 45% border, Asicminer could start to sell Miners. Maybe buy 1000TH, remain 750TH to hold the 45% and sell the rest in form of miners. Maybe more to take the customers from the other companies away (Mean, i know...) This way its possible to get the earnings of some months mining in a moment so that the real earnings are going above 50% without waking fear of the people about a >50% attack.

At the moment i dont see a company or concept that could beat Asicminer. At least from the infos available.
...
If only... the datacenter would be ready with proper power and network so that Asicminer could play out its power... Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
If this is going to be a nonissue, then disregard my previous posts.

Disregarded :-)

There's no doubt in anyone'sl mind what's going on. I seriously hope none of the buyers expected AM or anyone else to just hold back until they got their money's worth back.

If they had no idea that AM was scheduled for deployment _and_ that their deployment to as much as possible is the actual reason why they could also sell off a chunk of TH, then I would just like to add that ignorance is usually very expensive when investing those kinds of sums.

.b
full member
Activity: 223
Merit: 100
AsicMiner will soon, to be Always, will control the majority of the hash rate in the network constantly persistently, this is irresistible, and non-reversible situation Smiley
They got the technology, and they can always add more ASICs pretty much Easily. Smiley


Resistance is futile.
--(c)borg
member
Activity: 89
Merit: 10
AsicMiner will soon, to be Always, will control the majority of the hash rate in the network constantly persistently, this is irresistible, and non-reversible situation Smiley
They got the technology, and they can always add more ASICs pretty much Easily. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
avalon is going to flood the network with the diy chips in a distant. How should AM deal with this ?
sr. member
Activity: 356
Merit: 255
I think a good way to get the best of both worlds is to commit to attempt to maintain a set percentage of the global hashrate, and sell the excess. (Say, 20%... I'm not really a fan of the 10% idea, that seems pretty low given the very small number of ASIC players that are publicly known, and by the end of the year, ASICs will control over 90% of the hashrate, if not sooner.) That way, shareholders have a predictable income stream from hashing, and purchasers of devices would know that their devices aren't going to be undercut by AM in any unknown way... pricing of devices would be stabilized (good for purchasers, which should increase demand for devices with better known values of return versus the competition with unknown levels of self-mining), and the only real cause of an individual miner's profit rate decline would then be the global hashrate growth, same as it has been historically.

If the AM share of global hashrate approaches 25%, priority shifts to sales to get it down to 20% for the benefit of device sales... if it goes to 15%, it shifts more to mining. (20% is just a number in my head, I'm sure there's a statistical sweet spot that someone can calculate... perhaps it really is 10%, I dunno.)
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
I hope they start using other pools asap.

If we don't start getting more hashing power online soon, it won't matter which pool we use.

You are absolutely clueless about what's going on, aren't you?
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Friedcat also has to keep in mind of the first auction winners. There are folks that just shelled out 75 BTC for 10 GH/s, it wouldn't exactly be fair if ASICMiner doubled the network hash rate before they got their blades (insult to injury). I'm sure this will be addressed in this week's update.

Youre serious? Stop earning money so that others can earn?

Uh no, I didn't do the best job of explaining my thought process. Being a shareholder myself, I am not saying stop earning money but there is some balance. If people see that AM auctions off their first blades and then they just unload TH/s, the next set of blades being auction will have significantly less profits because people know ROI will take much, much longer.

If this is going to be a nonissue, then disregard my previous posts.

I would say it is a non-issue.... there were 10 blades sold.... unless the next batch for sale is 50 TH the only correct way to go is to try and get online a.s.a.p.

Agreed.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Friedcat also has to keep in mind of the first auction winners. There are folks that just shelled out 75 BTC for 10 GH/s, it wouldn't exactly be fair if ASICMiner doubled the network hash rate before they got their blades (insult to injury). I'm sure this will be addressed in this week's update.

Youre serious? Stop earning money so that others can earn?

Uh no, I didn't do the best job of explaining my thought process. Being a shareholder myself, I am not saying stop earning money but there is some balance. If people see that AM auctions off their first blades and then they just unload TH/s, the next set of blades being auction will have significantly less profits because people know ROI will take much, much longer.

If this is going to be a nonissue, then disregard my previous posts.

I would say it is a non-issue.... there were 10 blades sold.... unless the next batch for sale is 50 TH the only correct way to go is to try and get online a.s.a.p.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Friedcat also has to keep in mind of the first auction winners. There are folks that just shelled out 75 BTC for 10 GH/s, it wouldn't exactly be fair if ASICMiner doubled the network hash rate before they got their blades (insult to injury). I'm sure this will be addressed in this week's update.

Youre serious? Stop earning money so that others can earn?

Uh no, I didn't do the best job of explaining my thought process. Being a shareholder myself, I am not saying stop earning money but there is some balance. If people see that AM auctions off their first blades and then they just unload TH/s, the next set of blades being auctioned will have significantly less profits because people know ROI will take much, much longer.

If this is going to be a nonissue, then disregard my previous posts.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083
Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile
Friedcat said the earliest date for new deployment was the week of Apr 22nd

So I guess we could expect smtg this week, but it is not set in stone

Friedcat also has to keep in mind of the first auction winners. There are folks that just shelled out 75 BTC for 10 GH/s, it wouldn't exactly be fair if ASICMiner doubled the network hash rate before they got their blades (insult to injury). I'm sure this will be addressed in this week's update.

Youre serious? Stop earning money so that others can earn?
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Friedcat said the earliest date for new deployment was the week of Apr 22nd

So I guess we could expect smtg this week, but it is not set in stone

Friedcat also has to keep in mind of the first auction winners. There are folks that just shelled out 75 BTC for 10 GH/s, it wouldn't exactly be fair if ASICMiner doubled the network hash rate before they got their blades (insult to injury). I'm sure this will be addressed in this week's update.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
I hope they start using other pools asap.

If we don't start getting more hashing power online soon, it won't matter which pool we use.

Friedcat said the earliest date for new deployment was the week of Apr 22nd

So I guess we could expect smtg this week, but it is not set in stone
hero member
Activity: 499
Merit: 500
I hope they start using other pools asap.

If we don't start getting more hashing power online soon, it won't matter which pool we use.
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