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Topic: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It - page 1319. (Read 3917029 times)

sr. member
Activity: 337
Merit: 252
1 GHash = 50 / (4 * difficulty) BTC [before block reward halving] /.../ BTC

You may be wondering, where does the number 4 come from? Actually, a more accurate number of the income from 1GH/s is 50/(4.295 *difficulty) BTC/s.

4.295032833 being 10-9248/65535 see the wiki
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Friedcat: Would it be possible to give a power estimate in Wattage per GH

BFL and Avalon came out with theirs so it would be good to be able to compare, I know you gave yours in Joule/GH, but there's no way to compare the 2 without having more info

Thanks
Our spec is 4.2 (Watt / (GHash / s)). Because 1 Watt = 1 Joule / s, it equals to 4.2 Joule / GHash.

We know that:

1 kWh = 3,600,000 Joule

1 GHash = 50 / (4 * difficulty) BTC [before block reward halving] or 25 / (4 * difficulty) [after block reward halving] BTC

Suppose the price of electricity per kWh is pe, and the price of BTC is pb, the difficulty when we are un-profitable any more is d, we have:

4.2 * pe / 3,600,000 = pb * 50 / (4 * d) [before block reward halving]
or
4.2 * pe / 3,600,000 = pb * 25 / (4 * d) [after block reward halving]

therefore:

d = (3,600,000 * pb * 50) / (4.2 * pe * 4) [before block reward halving]
or
d = (3,600,000 * pb * 25) / (4.2 * pe * 4) [after block reward halving]

First we could fill in the (pe) field [0.1$ in China]. Then we could speculate on the average price of Bitcoin during the whole operating time and fill in the (pb) field to get the average difficulty cap, below which the miners could have non-negative margin profits if they consider electricity cost to be their only margin cost.

Thanks for your (more than) comprehensive answer !
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1005
Friedcat: Would it be possible to give a power estimate in Wattage per GH

BFL and Avalon came out with theirs so it would be good to be able to compare, I know you gave yours in Joule/GH, but there's no way to compare the 2 without having more info

Thanks
Our spec is 4.2 (Watt / (GHash / s)). Because 1 Watt = 1 Joule / s, it equals to 4.2 Joule / GHash.

We know that:

1 kWh = 3,600,000 Joule

1 GHash = 50 / (4 * difficulty) BTC [before block reward halving] or 25 / (4 * difficulty) [after block reward halving] BTC

Suppose the price of electricity per kWh is pe, and the price of BTC is pb, the difficulty when we are un-profitable any more is d, we have:

4.2 * pe / 3,600,000 = pb * 50 / (4 * d) [before block reward halving]
or
4.2 * pe / 3,600,000 = pb * 25 / (4 * d) [after block reward halving]

therefore:

d = (3,600,000 * pb * 50) / (4.2 * pe * 4) [before block reward halving]
or
d = (3,600,000 * pb * 25) / (4.2 * pe * 4) [after block reward halving]

First we could fill in the (pe) field [0.1$ in China]. Then we could speculate on the average price of Bitcoin during the whole operating time and fill in the (pb) field to get the average difficulty cap, below which the miners could have non-negative margin profits if they consider electricity cost to be their only margin cost.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
Friedcat: Would it be possible to give a power estimate in Wattage per GH

BFL and Avalon came out with theirs so it would be good to be able to compare, I know you gave yours in Joule/GH, but there's no way to compare the 2 without having more info

Thanks
One Joule worth of energy is equivalent to one Watt of power sustained over one second. You do the math. Hint: Ghash vs. Ghash/s.The only reason Friedcat provided Joules per Gigahash and not "Wattage per GH" is that he understands physics.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
DiabloMiner author
1 J/GH = 1 Ws/GH = 1 W/(GH/s)

Most important math ever.
sr. member
Activity: 337
Merit: 252
1 J/GH = 1 Ws/GH = 1 W/(GH/s)
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Friedcat: Would it be possible to give a power estimate in Wattage per GH

BFL and Avalon came out with theirs so it would be good to be able to compare, I know you gave yours in Joule/GH, but there's no way to compare the 2 without having more info

Thanks
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
The most direct way (but maybe the most inflexible one) is to let bitfountain hold the shares for you. But they won't do it below a certain minimum (because of the involved management) and you won't be able to liquidate easily (because you can't put asks and bids) ...
You are pretty much at the mercy of glbse. Just pray friedcat doesnt annoy Nefario for some reason  Smiley

Actually, you could sign a contract with bitfountain and hold the signed text instead of shares on GLBSE, as Jutarul said. This only works if you have enough shares that would make it worth friedcat's time. As long as the company continues to be listed and you have a direct channel to the issuer, there should be a way to find a solution. For instance, if ASICMINER did decide to get listed on cryptostocks as well, you could transfer your shares this way.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
Is it possible to hold ASICMINER shares outside of GLBSE?


Glbse is both the broker and the exchange.  
Someone could setup a passthrough to cryptostocks for example.
The problem though is that passthroughs enhance the risk of default (adding more links to the chain).

The most direct way (but maybe the most inflexible one) is to let bitfountain hold the shares for you. But they won't do it below a certain minimum (because of the involved management) and you won't be able to liquidate easily (because you can't put asks and bids) ...


You are pretty much at the mercy of glbse. Just pray friedcat doesnt annoy Nefario for some reason  Smiley
donator
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
Is it possible to hold ASICMINER shares outside of GLBSE?


Glbse is both the broker and the exchange.  
Someone could setup a passthrough to cryptostocks for example.
The problem though is that passthroughs enhance the risk of default (adding more links to the chain).

The most direct way (but maybe the most inflexible one) is to let bitfountain hold the shares for you. But they won't do it below a certain minimum (because of the involved management) and you won't be able to liquidate easily (because you can't put asks and bids) ...
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
Is it possible to hold ASICMINER shares outside of GLBSE?


Glbse is both the broker and the exchange. 
Someone could setup a passthrough to cryptostocks for example.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
Is it possible to hold ASICMINER shares outside of GLBSE?
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1005
Friedcat: Have you guys thought about mining software yet ? Will you develop that in-house or get supported by CGMiner for instance ?

Don't know if that part can be started before the actual product is in your hands ? That will also take time I assume
We will make/customize our own version at first when the PCB design is finalized. After we publish the PCB interface to the community, and people make better open source software than ours, we will possibly switch.
Hmm - sounds just like BFL - before BFL changed their mind and said they would support software development of their ASIC.
Why am I not surprised? Tongue
Sorry for my bad communication of giving people the impression that we claim to write the software from scratch.

What in my mind was the scenario of our own deployment of our first batch of THashes when I replied the question. The software needs to be modified to adapt our hardware protocol and optimized for larger size of works from the network. This part would first be done with ourselves because it allows quicker iteration.

Since we don't sell our boards until later batches, and mere specification is not enough for other people to support our products with their software, we (Bitfountain side) talked about giving a small number of sample boards to the community for evaluation and development before we accept any orders. The final plan should be discussed among board members and approved by shareholders.
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
Sodium hypochlorite, acetone, ethanol
yeah, why waste time on making your own mining software client, the available ones are good (probably better) enough...

legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
Friedcat: Have you guys thought about mining software yet ? Will you develop that in-house or get supported by CGMiner for instance ?

Don't know if that part can be started before the actual product is in your hands ? That will also take time I assume
We will make/customize our own version at first when the PCB design is finalized. After we publish the PCB interface to the community, and people make better open source software than ours, we will possibly switch.
Hmm - sounds just like BFL - before BFL changed their mind and said they would support software development of their ASIC.
Why am I not surprised? Tongue
full member
Activity: 153
Merit: 100
Злобный Ых
Friedcat: Have you guys thought about mining software yet ? Will you develop that in-house or get supported by CGMiner for instance ?

Don't know if that part can be started before the actual product is in your hands ? That will also take time I assume
We will make/customize our own version at first when the PCB design is finalized. After we publish the PCB interface to the community, and people make better open source software than ours, we will possibly switch.
BFGMiner announce (coming soon) ASICMiner support  https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=78192
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1005
A legitimate and reputatable company works on a first come first serve basis. If you are the 10th in line at McDonalds, and people would be served before you because you had a "pay double, be served instantly option". How would you feel? Ignored because you choose to pay the normal price?

LOL, welcome to the reality. What do you think will happen if a big costumer of the foundry is asking for a reduced timeline or some test wafers that are important to the development? Do you really thing they will be told 'we are a legitimate company, you have to wait?'. This would be last time the big costumer were asking this fab as there a lot of other 'illegitimate and unreputatable company' who work first for their shareholders benefit.

What Do you think  'hot run' and 'super hot run' mean? Pay some money and become a vip costumer and get your chips a little more ASAP. On the other side there are (at least at 'my' pcb-manufacturer) reduced rates if you can wait a little longer.

Even if that is true: most foundries have very large customers that get privileged treatment anyway because they are repeat customers with a lot of business. I am afraid our little $ 100K project does not have the funds to bribe it's way to the front of the queue and will certainly be the one put on the back burner when one of the regular big customers wants a run done.

(Super) hot run, as well as MLM process, is made possible because we are lucky, happening to be in the quarter when large players are less than other seasons. Smiley
donator
Activity: 848
Merit: 1005
Friedcat: Have you guys thought about mining software yet ? Will you develop that in-house or get supported by CGMiner for instance ?

Don't know if that part can be started before the actual product is in your hands ? That will also take time I assume
We will make/customize our own version at first when the PCB design is finalized. After we publish the PCB interface to the community, and people make better open source software than ours, we will possibly switch.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Friedcat: Have you guys thought about mining software yet ? Will you develop that in-house or get supported by CGMiner for instance ?

Don't know if that part can be started before the actual product is in your hands ? That will also take time I assume
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
A legitimate and reputatable company works on a first come first serve basis. If you are the 10th in line at McDonalds, and people would be served before you because you had a "pay double, be served instantly option". How would you feel? Ignored because you choose to pay the normal price?

LOL, welcome to the reality. What do you think will happen if a big costumer of the foundry is asking for a reduced timeline or some test wafers that are important to the development? Do you really thing they will be told 'we are a legitimate company, you have to wait?'. This would be last time the big costumer were asking this fab as there a lot of other 'illegitimate and unreputatable company' who work first for their shareholders benefit.

What Do you think  'hot run' and 'super hot run' mean? Pay some money and become a vip costumer and get your chips a little more ASAP. On the other side there are (at least at 'my' pcb-manufacturer) reduced rates if you can wait a little longer.

Even if that is true: most foundries have very large customers that get privileged treatment anyway because they are repeat customers with a lot of business. I am afraid our little $ 100K project does not have the funds to bribe it's way to the front of the queue and will certainly be the one put on the back burner when one of the regular big customers wants a run done.

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