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exstasie

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Quote from: Hueristic on July 30, 2020, 08:45:00 PM

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However Kruger says that most contracts are simply paper trades that are rolled over. Only 15 BTC were actually delivered in October and only 17 were delivered in November.

https://micky.com.au/stabbed-in-the-bakkt-not-a-scam-but-not-the-whole-truth-either/

So, what are the real numbers? Huh

Not these bullshit 150 million sold bullshit numbers, those are paper trades which is nothing more than a futures gambling house that never leaves the site.

Wall Street came to speculate. What were you expecting? Wink

This is how it is in traditional commodities markets too. Traders have no interest in physical settlement, and that's who generates the majority of volume. They roll over contracts to maintain their positions while avoiding settlement costs and fees.

fillippone

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Quote from: Hueristic link=topic=5180571.msg54904009#msg54904009

<...>
So, what are the real numbers? Huh

Not these bullshit 150 million sold bullshit numbers, those are paper trades which is nothing more than a futures gambling house that never leaves the site.

It should be called Bakkt Casino as that is exactly what it is, with the only winners being the house.

No conspiracy theory here. What you are looking at is the difference between future volumes and futures open interest at settlement. You are basically comparing the 137 usd millions daily volumes with the 14 millions of open interest at maturity date. Be aware that this is something common to every future in every asset class: I haven’t any statistic here ready available, but for every future the daily volumes are a double digit multiple of final settlements (this is particularly true for commodities like oil). Also rolling maturities is a common practice, when only the first future is liquid.

Hueristic

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This explains it pretty well. It was sold as physically settled bitcoin contract when in reality it is a wash traded in house settled token setup.

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As the name suggest, Bakkt is supposed to be a physically backed futures contract settled in actual Bitcoin (rather than cash like CME futures).

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Bakkt is not actually backed by Bitcoin

However Kruger says that most contracts are simply paper trades that are rolled over. Only 15 BTC were actually delivered in October and only 17 were delivered in November.

https://micky.com.au/stabbed-in-the-bakkt-not-a-scam-but-not-the-whole-truth-either/

So, what are the real numbers? Huh

Not these bullshit 150 million sold bullshit numbers, those are paper trades which is nothing more than a futures gambling house that never leaves the site.

It should be called Bakkt Casino as that is exactly what it is, with the only winners being the house.

exstasie

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Quote from: fillippone on July 30, 2020, 05:40:23 PM

I think it is natural this thread was bumped again after BAKKT broke twice in two days his ATH on Traded volume:

Highest volume on Coinbase Pro in 2.5 months too.

Volume tends to confirm trend breakouts. For me, these instances of high volume indicate that bullish continuation is likely. Bulls are in control. Unless an obvious failure below $10K occurs in the next couple days, I expect bulls to keep pushing higher to $12K+.

fillippone

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on July 30, 2020, 05:16:22 PM

I always thought futures contracts were settled in cash rather than the underlying asset--in fact, I'm almost certain that's the case with typical commodities.

I think I have explained in my futures thread I have already linked above: BAKKT futures are a first in bitcoin futures because they settle physically.
Contrary to what you said, usually commodity futures settle physical: the infamous negative spike in oil futures a few months ago was also due to the fact that the "tanks'' in Cushing OK, where the futures has to be delivered, were already almost full, so there was no way to do de delivery. Coffee, copper and other commodities have their own physically settled futures.
Of course in the realm of cryptos the delivery itself has a novelty to be managed, so this is why BAKKT futures are so important.
Regarding the "bitcoin exchanging hands", I might have misunderstood. Anyway when dealing with futures, bitcoin exchanges only at the expiration of the future, with the final settlement of the Open Interest.

I think it is natural this thread was bumped again after BAKKT broke twice in two days his ATH on Traded volume:

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Tuesday's Bakkt Bitcoin Monthly Futures:

Chart with upwards trend Traded contracts: 12214 ($137.83 million, +42%) (New ATH Rocket)
Rocket All time high: 12214 (7/28/2020)
Money bag Open interest: $14.43 million (+83%)

Did I help you by crunching data? Send me some sats: https://tippin.me/@BakktBot

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288359322318245888?s=20

The Sceptical Chymist

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Funny that this thread was bumped today, because I was just thinking about Bakkt yesterday and how there hasn't been much discussion about it in quite a long time. There was so much anticipation prior to its launch, and then once it opened up for business, things seemed to have gone flat.

I always thought futures contracts were settled in cash rather than the underlying asset--in fact, I'm almost certain that's the case with typical commodities. And I figured the same would be true with Bakkt and the bitcoin futures contracts it offers. The whole thing with futures markets is that you're betting on the price of a certain commodity, usually as a hedge, and traders normally don't want to take possession of barrels of oil or pork bellies or whatever.

I'm somewhat curious about this, and I'll read the link fillippone provided, but I still think these institutional investors that use Bakkt aren't looking to buy or sell bitcoin outright--and if that's the case I wouldn't imagine there's much bitcoin changing hands.

fillippone

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Quote from: Hueristic on July 30, 2020, 12:34:53 PM

Quote from: fillippone on July 30, 2020, 12:39:11 AM

Quote from: Hueristic on July 29, 2020, 07:51:45 PM

Quote from: Febo on July 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM

OK. This is time for when BAKKT was founded. Yesterdays volume was almost as much as highest weekly volume so far.

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288463064115949571

$137 million vs $146 million at second week of this year. This week will be a record by far.

Quick question, how much of that was actual bitcoin changing hands?

Bakkt future are physically settled, so volumes are literally the measure of daily “bitcoin changing hands”.
Instead “Open Interest” are the number of Bitcoin That will exchange hands at the expiry of the future.

You can learn more here:
Everything you wanted to know about BTC futures but were afraid to ask!

Hope it helps.

Thats not true those settled coins are not changing hands on the chain.

If you think they are then please feel free to show me the addressees.

The futue volmume don't move bitcoin on the chain.
Open Interest will eventually move bitcoins at the expiry of the future. With a proper on chain transaction.
Bakkt physical futures deliver bitcoin to the BAKKT digital wharehouse, the digital custodian for bitcoins to be settled on future expiries at Bakkt:

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The launch of the Bakkt Warehouse, our regulated custodian and part of Bakkt Trust Company, allows for the safe, secure storage of bitcoin. It represents a milestone as we prepare for the launch of the Bakkt Bitcoin Daily and Monthly Futures contracts on ICE Futures U.S. The Bakkt Warehouse was built using the same institutional grade infrastructure, operational controls, and security protections that support the world’s most actively traded markets, including the New York Stock Exchange, and was designed to meet the highest standards of compliance and oversight.

https://www.bakkt.com/blog/institutional/the-bakkt-warehouse-is-open-for-business

Regarding the addresses, I don't know them, but of course we are speaking of real bitcoins traded on the blockchain.

Hueristic

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Quote from: fillippone on July 30, 2020, 12:39:11 AM

Quote from: Hueristic on July 29, 2020, 07:51:45 PM

Quote from: Febo on July 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM

OK. This is time for when BAKKT was founded. Yesterdays volume was almost as much as highest weekly volume so far.

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288463064115949571

$137 million vs $146 million at second week of this year. This week will be a record by far.

Quick question, how much of that was actual bitcoin changing hands?

Bakkt future are physically settled, so volumes are literally the measure of daily “bitcoin changing hands”.
Instead “Open Interest” are the number of Bitcoin That will exchange hands at the expiry of the future.

You can learn more here:
Everything you wanted to know about BTC futures but were afraid to ask!

Hope it helps.

Thats not true those settled coins are not changing hands on the chain.

If you think they are then please feel free to show me the addressees.

fillippone

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Quote from: Hueristic on July 29, 2020, 07:51:45 PM

Quote from: Febo on July 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM

OK. This is time for when BAKKT was founded. Yesterdays volume was almost as much as highest weekly volume so far.

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288463064115949571

$137 million vs $146 million at second week of this year. This week will be a record by far.

Quick question, how much of that was actual bitcoin changing hands?

Bakkt future are physically settled, so volumes are literally the measure of daily “bitcoin changing hands”.
Instead “Open Interest” are the number of Bitcoin That will exchange hands at the expiry of the future.

You can learn more here:
Everything you wanted to know about BTC futures but were afraid to ask!

Hope it helps.

Hueristic

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Quote from: Febo on July 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM

OK. This is time for when BAKKT was founded. Yesterdays volume was almost as much as highest weekly volume so far.

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288463064115949571

$137 million vs $146 million at second week of this year. This week will be a record by far.

Quick question, how much of that was actual bitcoin changing hands?

Febo

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OK. This is time for when BAKKT was founded. Yesterdays volume was almost as much as highest weekly volume so far.

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1288463064115949571

$137 million vs $146 million at second week of this year. This week will be a record by far.

Febo

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38th week ended. $111 millions volume. It seems volume hands around $100-120 million in last weeks. Hopefully with the price increase also interest for Bitcoin will increase.

Febo

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In the last 6 weeks average volume was around $50 millions a week and open interest around $6.5 million. As soon covid-19 uncertainty started happening volumes shrank.

Febo

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https://twitter.com/kloeffler/status/1226672158803464192

But I did exactly zero for BTCitcoin.

Yours faithful,

Bitcoin Senator Kelly

fillippone

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Quote from: darewaller on January 30, 2020, 12:58:04 PM

Lol! People were so excited about bakkt and how it would increase the price of bitcoin and look at it now Cheesy

. It is literally at zero for the past week and they are not even trying to hide it or fake volume it or anything, they just let everything go. If bakkt deals with everything like this I wonder how they have survived so far on other stuff, personally I would have expected them to literally go bankrupt until they start the bitcoin part of their business if they were this bad on anything else.

Thankfully public doesn't care about bakkt anymore so that price can't get any lower because of it, they can close down shop all together and not deal with crypto anymore from now on and it would still not hurt bitcoin or any other coins prices. I say good riddance, we don't need them.

Bear in mind that we ar talking about options.

Totally different than futures, where Bakkt is slowly kranking up the machine. Yesterday they set their record Open Interest.

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raded contracts: 1169 ($11.10 million, -3%)
🚀 All time high: 6601 (12/18/2019)
💰 Open interest: $10.00 million (+13% - new all time high 🚀)

https://twitter.com/BakktBot/status/1222885951090909184?s=20

Not negligible.

darewaller

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Lol! People were so excited about bakkt and how it would increase the price of bitcoin and look at it now Cheesy

. It is literally at zero for the past week and they are not even trying to hide it or fake volume it or anything, they just let everything go. If bakkt deals with everything like this I wonder how they have survived so far on other stuff, personally I would have expected them to literally go bankrupt until they start the bitcoin part of their business if they were this bad on anything else.

Thankfully public doesn't care about bakkt anymore so that price can't get any lower because of it, they can close down shop all together and not deal with crypto anymore from now on and it would still not hurt bitcoin or any other coins prices. I say good riddance, we don't need them.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: fillippone on January 30, 2020, 04:43:36 AM

Apparently, Bakkt Options didn't get much traction:

Literally No One Is Trading Bakkt’s Bitcoin Options

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Trading volumes in bitcoin options listed on the Intercontinental Exchange's Bakkt platform have completely dried up, even while CME’s options product is seeing strong interest.

As per Bakkt’s data, not a single bitcoin options contract was traded last week on Bakkt, with activity last registered on Jan. 17, when 20 lots had changed hands.

This is fairly disappointing. Bakkt futures are still lagging behind CME, but I think is something we could expect given the physical nature of such futures and the fact CME has been trading since a couple of years. Options volumes (not to speak about open interest) is really disappointing, by the way.
Also please note that Bakkt themselves have never commented on such products since launch.

Yes as I said in another thread I think institutional investors don't like Bakkt very much because it's regulated, monitored, protected with circuit breakers, etc and it's only used by professional traders. Moreover the settlement is done with its own price while other futures and options exchanges use the BTC price of few unregulated exchanges (eg Bitstamp, Coinbase, Gemini, itBit, and Kraken for CME) for the settlements. So it's way harder and risky to play with the price on Bakkt.

fillippone

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Apparently, Bakkt Options didn't get much traction:

Literally No One Is Trading Bakkt’s Bitcoin Options

Quote

Trading volumes in bitcoin options listed on the Intercontinental Exchange's Bakkt platform have completely dried up, even while CME’s options product is seeing strong interest.

As per Bakkt’s data, not a single bitcoin options contract was traded last week on Bakkt, with activity last registered on Jan. 17, when 20 lots had changed hands.

This is fairly disappointing. Bakkt futures are still lagging behind CME, but I think is something we could expect given the physical nature of such futures and the fact CME has been trading since a couple of years. Options volumes (not to speak about open interest) is really disappointing, by the way.
Also please note that Bakkt themselves have never commented on such products since launch.

Hueristic

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