Topic: [BET] Trump or Harris 2024, Poker Player vs suchmoon - page 7. (Read 2719 times)

It sure has.


What is the "it" that I'm allegedly not seeing? Biden did the right thing and dropped out. Shouldn't Trump drop out if we're doing apples to apples here? He's rambling about windmills and whales and dead people and fictional characters and just general incoherent nonsense. Have you seen him trying to talk about basic things like inflation? He's not well.

I just thought you were referring to some ruling regarding the past elections. What I'm saying is that the Supreme Court sure hasn't ruled anything on future possible events.


To me it is clear that Biden has had cognitive problems for at least a couple of years that are not seen in Trump and that is what forced him to withdraw from the electoral race.It is a question of seeing it or not seeing it.


It seems to me that I am not going to discuss much with you, eh? Because with suchmoon I argue but at least we have some common grounds to discuss but for you to say that this is false, it is not that you live in wonderland, it is that you do not understand anything or you live in the ideal world of Marx's Das Kapital, who by the way was another posh guy from a rich family who never worked in his life.

To begin with I don't know how an irony is going to be false, but the liberal nonsense that all immigration is wonderful, no matter how many millions come and defending that they are all wonderful people is to live totally alienated, it is easily dismantled if there are only a few who are not like that, who are criminals, that's what my irony was about.

You as a good alienated liberal take it as if I am saying the nonsense that most immigrants are criminals, which I have not said, I have said that what is false is the opposite thesis, that they are all wonderful. If you know anything about logic you know that what Hispo said for example already falsifies it.

And when you go on to talk about xenophobia, which is the typical liberal asshole argument (if you say something against immigration= xenophobe, in the same simplistic way as I could say: if you are in favor of massive and uncontrolled immigration= moron). Then you talk about Putin and Hitler, but what does Putin have to do here? I am not going to even respond to you. If you keep doing that, then if I want to answer you I will do it too, distort what you say and refute you.

The only thing I see you make a reasoned analysis on is the difference in immigration between Europe and USA, in that in Europe there is much more public spending and from the first moment but give Kamala a presidency and you will see.

Earlier I posted a link on the subject:
 

Isn't that public spending?

And as for the wonderful immigration in Europe, I could give you hundreds of links of how wonderful the neighborhoods are as a result of mass immigration but you are one of those who does not suffer from it and you sure are very feminist and at the same time do not see a contradiction between that and filling the cities with Burkas.

So ignore everything I said about the past 4 years and queue an odd deflection to Trump... do you by chance work for CBS or MSNBC?  

It seems the reality is Trump actually tried hard to change things during his time, sometimes extreme and unlawful things, the things that got through did appear to have an effect during his time if you look at the previous charts.
https://immigrantjustice.org/timeline-trump-administrations-efforts-end-asylum

To answer your question, I'd lean towards A (with no magic needed).  Your chart only looked at 1 state, as some sort of proof for a snide generalization.

Let’s get away from your 1 state averages and look at some totals now, I've highlighted some of my concerns, but the overall numbers I think speak for themselves on the caliber of people trying to get through in the past 4 years.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics


On top of this, nobody is taking into account any of the additional issues that occur (outside of crime) when immigration is increased to this level, quickly, without the resources to support them.
Skilled labor has a good shot of making it, but that doesn't seem to be anywhere near the majority of immigrants coming in.



I guess this explains your lack of connection to reality.... you need more training.

We need and want immigrants, but there has to be some level of rational control and appropriate vetting.

It would seem to be the debate on immigration is already kicking in even for Joe Biden  (who is not longer running for reelection anymore).

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/05/politics/biden-administration-immigration-nicaragua-cuba-venezuela-haiti/index.html

The Biden administration has decided not to renew the TPS (Temporary protection Status) on those who legally entered the United States since last year through the parole program, the CNN article claims it will be applied on certain cases, but other articles and media assume the whole policy on immigration will shift under what is left of the Biden admibistration.
After what it is going on in New York and in other democrat run cities, it seems the immigration debate is being won by Republicans (who won't stop to claim the worthern border is a mess and the country is being flooded with criminals and people from mental asylums).
Jode Biden knows they need every vote they can get to have a chance to defeat Donald Trump, so he is trying to appeal to moderate Democrats who indeed see a problem with the current way the government of the United States is dealing with immigrants.

If Kamala wins, I would expect the parole/TPS program to resume as if nothing happened.

Yet Trump did not accept to change it when he could.

So on these two options:

a) by mere effect of magic (just like Trump "won" the elections but lost the elections) the immigrants have become criminals, but only the last four years.

or maybe...

b) they are still less criminally active that the average US citizen and the argument about them is a lie that has been used during the last four years.

What seems to you like the most likely explanation of these two??

The fact is that it is very easy to see a criminal that is undocumented make the news, it is very easy to cast the prejudice and it is particularly easier because there has been certainly an increase in crossings because 90% of Central America is unliveable (other than precisely for criminals) - inevitably, plain numbers are going to be up. But if you look to percent as a measure of honesty, immigrants are rising the bar of the existing citizens. They are less criminal than US citizens and they are basically running away from crime.

You want people to remain in their countries? Make sure they can live there - no "wall" will stop them if they have nothing to loose.


Nope, it is not false you wrote:


All I did was remove the irony so that your xenophobic message shows more clearly, but it is certainly there in written. It is that xenophobia that Hitler is using against the Jews, sorry, that Putin is using against Europe, sorry... that Trump is using in his favour - oldest trick in history, to blame an enemy from the outside - and still working perfectly to catch the unsatisfied.

As far as what and where I am or anything about me, I am an AI living in a cluster of servers in an unchartered island in the middle of one of the seven oceans. Or maybe in a satellite orbiting Europa, as in Jupiter's moon Europa, not the continent.

If you speak about the illegal immigration in Europe and the ability of Europe to deal with it, you would need first another thread and second to understand the difference between the US system - which basically gives nothing for free and has abundant employment opportunities (even for the not qualified) and most European systems which basically give everything for free and struggle with unemployment qualified or not.

People in Europe are not complaining much of migrants being criminals, they are wondering how the current welfare state can be maintained with the current illegal migration levels. This is obviously an opportunity for Le Pen and many others that use the same principle as Trump - blame the foreign, they do not vote.


The fact that you have to explain that also explains many other things.

Not long ago I watched "Vice" (2018 film). So I understand what you're talking about and I think you're right.

Whatever the president does is actually legal because he acts on behalf of the country (for good or for harm).

Dick Cheney clearly demonstrated what it means to fuck the letter of the law while following it.

Can you elaborate? Trump has repeatedly claimed that he would conduct mass deportations, with little to no regard to legal status. And he would have near absolute immunity from prosecution even if he breaks the law. Impeachment is basically impossible as we've already seen. What is there to stop him?


What ideology? We're literally betting on Trump and Kamala, not Biden. Biden dropped out mainly because he was not fit to run again. Trump is not fit in most ways Biden was, and he's still running.


That's not what I meant but it's fine. I'm not trying to convince you.



These are rates per 100k people of that category, so if you combine them you get an average (not a sum), which would still be lower.

False.


Lol. Your ideology blinds you.


No, I have no problem. In fact, if they shoot him again and kill him I will sleep just as well as if they don't kill him or he sticks a dynamite firecracker up his ass and blows himself up or goes on television self-perceived as a flying swordfish. You have called out one thing about Kamala as bullshit, but the rest, to paraphrase you, you seem to have trouble calling out her bullshit.


False, if you want to debate with me don't start by lying. Besides I don't know what you expect with that crap statistic you posted. Ibminer has made a fairly reasoned analysis of the issue but it's just that statistics don't prove anything.

You are European, right? That garbage statistics is what made 7 million people vote for Meloni in Italy, 8 million in the first round and 13 million in the second round for LePen in France and as many others for similar parties in other European countries. Because the ideological garbage that defends massive immigration, has turned European neighborhoods into Mogadischio and while the European worker who used to vote socialist has had to suffer the consequences you come with statistics from wonderland to dismantle what they can see.

This only goes to 2018. Most of the issues being raised these days seem to have happened in the past 4 years.

Also, if you were to combine the numbers for documented & undocumented immigrants committing felonies, immigrants would be higher so overall I'm not sure it helps the standard compared to a US-born citizen, this doesn't seem to sell the idea of bringing in more immigrants to a US-born citizen (and maybe even the non-felony committing documented citizens).

There seems to be a dramatic spike under Biden, but then I wonder if these people are then counted as committing felonies in future charts?
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/10/01/migrant-encounters-at-u-s-mexico-border-have-fallen-sharply-in-2024/

While these are successful encounters, the rise in traffic would presumably increase the % of not encountered (and probably not accounted for at all in stats), especially considering the agent count doesn't seem to have gone up and they're likely overwhelmed... looks like they might have went down 25%: https://nypost.com/2024/05/23/us-news/border-patrol-lost-25-of-agents-during-biden-admin-report/

Biden seems to be fine letting things spike until 5 months before an election he does this:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/06/04/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-new-actions-to-secure-the-border/

*slow clap*  

Translation: Immigration is a problem because many of the people crossing the border are criminals. Let's analyse your theory a little bit... let's take an state in which complaints about immigration are frequently use (Texas) just to make it even easier for you:



....drug related crime:

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate#:~:text=For%20drug%20offenses%2C%20too%2C%20undocumented,almost%2030%25%20during%20that%20time


So it seems that they are actually rising the standard to the proud citizens. I hope you do not feel threatened by their honesty and lawness.

On other crime....


It seems that you are the one living in wonderland, where facts happen magically when a XTweet makes them real.

Trump went back to Butler, PA, with JD Vance and Elon Musk. He has not stopped.


Trump returns to site of assassination attempt for rally with JD Vance, Elon Muskhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8tzSfaOQE


JD Vance Sounds Triumphant Note At Trump Butler, PA, Rally: 'We Cannot Be Stopped' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDzVDNtZxCA


Elon Musk at Trump rally in Butler, PA: FULL SPEECH - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asoq00GQ3BA

Not according to the Supreme Court.


Biden is not running. Trump is about as senile as Biden and wasn't very smart to begin with but he's still a candidate.


I'm talking about Trump. I have no problem calling out Kamala's bullshit. Seems like you have a problem even considering that Trump could do wrong.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3820172-trump-calls-for-jailing-journalists-who-broke-supreme-courts-draft-abortion-decision/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/donald-trump-suggests-police-extraordinarily-rough-end-retail/story?id=114340130

What Trump does or does not do will be subject to laws. It's not a matter of humanism, it's a matter of if you claim you have a right to asylum it doesn't automatically make you entitled to asylum.


Kamala's proposals are bullshit, as she has been vice president for 4 years and wants to present herself as the change the country needs. Check this out:

Kamala Harris pushes tougher asylum restrictions during visit to US-Mexico border

There are things Trump says that are bullshit, like he is going to deport 20 million but wanting to control the border well and deport a good portion of illegals that Kamala has let in is not.


Are you just saying that because Biden is too fit to be president or something?

I don't even know what you are talking about. And if Kamala Harris starts jailing people when they comment on a Facebook post that there has been an increase in rapes in their area due to mass illegal immigration are you going to white wash it? That already happens in the UK.


I understand you because when I was a leftist I also believed that the world was like Alice in Wonderland.

Surely all those who cross illegally are engineers who are going to contribute their talent and effort to the country, and they are not going to drive wages down or push real estate prices up, nor are there any drug dealers, pimps, women prostituted against their will or any kind of criminals among them. Ironies aside, you only have to go to the previous page to see that Alice was a story:

Being immigration such an issue - or has been made an issue but it is not really that much of an issue in a country with raising wages and pretty much only frictional unemployment and little public healthcare or other expensive state expenses of the like, my question is why did Trump trumped the the trumping of illegal border crossings?

You know that joke about consultants that point to a problem you do not have and make sure you understand that they are the only ones that can solve it and charge you for it?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/23/politics/senate-border-bill-vote/index.html

Neither Trump or Cabala have the authority to do much of what you say except that the people individually let them do it to them.

That's your interpretation. Trump said he will deport Haitians, he didn't elaborate if there will be any consideration about asylum, and knowing him it wouldn't make sense to assume he'd be humane about it.


We're discussing policies proposed by the candidates and this is one of them. I can easily say that e.g. Kamala's price gouging proposal is bullshit and disgraceful populism. Can you say the same thing about Trump's immigration bullshit, or do you still (selectively) like it?

To put it another way, if Trump says (completely hypothetically) that he would jail journalists or let police do whatever they want, would you still be sanewashing it as if that could never happen, even given the near-absolute immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

Not to mention just the basic fitness for office implications. How much can someone talk nonsense, including unlawful and unconstitutional nonsense, before we should say that no fucking way this person is fit to be president. Rhetorical question of course. There is longer any guardrails on at least one side of the political spectrum.

Just because they are in the country legally does not mean that they have permanent residency. If they have applied for asylum, we will have to see if they are granted or not. Kamala grant asylum status more easily while they will not.


Yes? How many did he revoke? We already know he is a big mouth, in the same way that if he wins with a clear majority there is no way he is going to kick out 20 million.


I was not aware of this specificity of US taxes, I may comment more on this in future posts.

They literally said that they will deport Haitians, who didn't do anything wrong, followed the law, and are here legally. Can they actually do it? I don't know but I wouldn't bet my life on it. And good luck trying to litigate your way back into the US after they send you back to whatever country they think you came from. Trump said he would deport up to 20 million immigrants, which far exceeds illegal immigrants plus TPS so it must include some green card holders or citizens or both, although that could be interpreted as him not having a clue as to how many illegal immigrants are actually in the country. Dumb or dangerous, makes little difference to me.

Also at some point during the first campaign or his first presidency Trump did actually claim that he could revoke some green cards. So it's not an exaggeration at all.


Qualified dividends and long-term capital gains are taxed at lower rates than regular tax brackets. This makes no sense and benefits only those who can fudge their income to be coming from those sources, as opposed to regular payroll, i.e. large business owners. Regular wage earners, self-employed, and many small business owners don't have this option.

There is already a social security tax cap that significantly benefits higher income individuals, we don't need yet another subsidy for the rich. I can understand the SS cap because SS payouts are also capped, but income tax is income tax, there shouldn't be any top-side discounts.

There are some other loopholes, but dividends and cap gains is a big one. Get rid of that and I'm sure all brackets can be bumped down a point or two.

We also have a ridiculously regressive tax that everyone insists on calling "health insurance" even though it doesn't "insure" shit nor does it do much for health, it's just privatized tax collection industry that may or may not pay your doctor but will definitely bankrupt you if you dare to get seriously sick. But as I think I've already mentioned, we aren't gonna be able to solve this one within my lifetime.

What comes after what I put in bold is perhaps an exaggerated assumption on your part. In any self-respecting democracy you cannot be retroactively wronged. They can benefit you retroactively but not harm you.

In this case, for example, if Kamala takes office on January 20, she could retroactively effective January 1 give citizenship to all the people who are in an irregular situation in the USA, or propose to pass such a law, it is just an example.

But Trump could not take away the citizenship of someone who has it because his parents are from Mexico. He could propose in the future a law, or a reform of the constitution, according to which nationality would not be granted in such cases.

Nor would I like to focus the debate exclusively on the immigration issue. In another thread you criticized lowering taxes on billionaires and said you wouldn't mind across-the-board tax cuts as long as there were no what you called loopholes such as dividends and capital gains for the wealthiest. Would you like us to comment on this aspect?

That's correct, and I have dealt with USCIS and other agencies enough to know that what Trump/Vance say about immigration is mostly bullshit. I don't know if my personal experience affects my position on immigration as a whole - I had this view that immigration should be mostly merit-based with sensible quotas for refugees from dangerous places since before I came here or even thought of coming here - but I certainly appreciate the complexity of the issue a lot more now.

The fact that they blatantly say they would deport people who are legally residing in the US (just because they don't like the law) is so absurd that it shouldn't be acceptable in a political campaign but here we are. If they can do that, they can then say "this green card you have was obtained using the law we don't like so we'll deport you too", and also "this citizenship you got is based on the law we don't like so off you go", and also "don't matter that you're born here because we don't like your parents so go to Mexico", and you can tell from the current attitude among their supporters that all of that would be perfectly normal and valid to them.