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Topic: BFL Timeline - illustrated - page 5. (Read 8917 times)

hero member
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April 09, 2013, 09:09:35 PM
#26
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?

I think the chances of you being so stupid that you actually believe what you're saying in this thread is < 0%. Therefore I'm putting you on ignore.

For the benefit of others, this was the thought process:

What's the chance that BFL would tell a lie that is guaranteed to be exposed and hurt their business?

What's the chance that BFL's managers are optimistic and unable to understand the challenges of designing ASIC products and their engineers would fail to communicate the proper information to them?

I have a lot of personal experience with the second option, having worked for companies that shipped products more than a year late. In every case the marketing people actually believed what they were publishing and the managers actually believed that the timelines were viable, and the engineers actually were terrible at communication. It's even more likely in BFL's case since they outsourced most of their engineering. Hence, this option seems more likely.

I'm sure creativex applied his feelings and they told him that bfl MUST have been lying from the start. Everyone knows that feels trump facts and rational analysis, and anyone who disagrees with your feelings is stupid.

You're forgetting that bitcoin, the internet, and the communities of con-artists at large are full of sociopaths. Why would they care about getting caught in a lie when they think they're above the truth? Pirate made himself believe everything he said.
full member
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April 09, 2013, 09:07:25 PM
#25
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?

I think the chances of you being so stupid that you actually believe what you're saying in this thread is < 0%. Therefore I'm putting you on ignore.

For the benefit of others, this was the thought process:

What's the chance that BFL would tell a lie that is guaranteed to be exposed and hurt their business?

What's the chance that BFL's managers are optimistic and unable to understand the challenges of designing ASIC products and their engineers would fail to communicate the proper information to them?

I have a lot of personal experience with the second option, having worked for companies that shipped products more than a year late. In every case the marketing people actually believed what they were publishing and the managers actually believed that the timelines were viable, and the engineers actually were terrible at communication. It's even more likely in BFL's case since they outsourced most of their engineering. Hence, this option seems more likely.

I'm sure creativex applied his feelings and they told him that bfl MUST have been lying from the start. Everyone knows that feels trump facts and rational analysis, and anyone who disagrees with your feelings is stupid.
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April 09, 2013, 08:55:13 PM
#24

I'm stupid for thinking that BFL is incompetent?

You're stupid for thinking they're only incompetent. They are also deceitful.

No, I just think that their incompetence outweighs their deceitfulness, at least in this case.
hero member
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April 09, 2013, 08:54:59 PM
#23
All 4 requirements for a fraud conviction are easily provable in BFLs case. BFLs only chance is to ship something fast.

I disagree, at least with this:

Quote
That the accused did so willfully and with an intent to defraud; and

When a company spends money on advertisements, (semi-)working hardware, etc, you can easily argue that they were intending to produce. It would be very hard for a judge to rule that BFL was *intending* to defraud people in an industry where legitimate companies fail constantly due to financial restraints and hardware failure.

That said, they'd lose any case in regards to honesty in advertising and could be sued for that alone. In the end, they'd probably lose the same way Bruce Wagner lost for his mortgage venture. Bottom line: Taking insanely large amounts of money and not providing a single product.
legendary
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April 09, 2013, 08:52:18 PM
#22
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?

I think the chances of you being so stupid that you actually believe what you're saying in this thread is < 0%. Therefore I'm putting you on ignore.

I'm stupid for thinking that BFL is incompetent?

I am sure their lawyers will have them use incompetence as a defense. However, their claims of having a prototype when it was clear they did not is misrepresenting the facts. If you take someone's money, promise them goods or services, and lie all at the same time, that is fraud. Since they did it over the internet it is wire fraud.

http://www.federalcrimefaq.com/what-constitutes-the-crime-of-wire-fraud/

All 4 requirements for a fraud conviction are easily provable in BFLs case. BFLs only chance is to ship something fast.
legendary
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April 09, 2013, 08:49:37 PM
#21

I'm stupid for thinking that BFL is incompetent?

You're stupid for thinking they're only incompetent. They are also deceitful.
full member
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April 09, 2013, 08:46:38 PM
#20
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?

I think the chances of you being so stupid that you actually believe what you're saying in this thread is < 0%. Therefore I'm putting you on ignore.

I'm stupid for thinking that BFL is incompetent?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
April 09, 2013, 08:43:48 PM
#19
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?

I think the chances of you being so stupid that you actually believe what you're saying in this thread is < 0%. Therefore I'm putting you on ignore.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
April 09, 2013, 08:41:33 PM
#18
PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink

You realise that I'm flat out calling them stupid, right?
hero member
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April 09, 2013, 08:41:20 PM
#17
No amount of delays turns it into a lie.

Ordinarily I'd agree with the sentiment, as my company too was very late producing something (Bitcoin Magazine) and it was a stressful time bringing it to market despite very real unforeseen challanges. However, what you're basically doing is discounting MyBitcoin.com as a "mistake". And Pirateat40 for that matter. Were's the *proof* that they intended to run with the money?
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April 09, 2013, 08:40:43 PM
#16
Holy crap dude really? You still think they're *JUST* incompetent?

Please explain to me how there was ever a > 0% chance of any ASIC mining products leaving Butterfly Labs during 2012. Then explain to me how BFL staff could have possibly failed to recognize this fact for months while they continuously told pre-order victims that they'd "scheduled shipments" x number of days or weeks in the future. Then there's the official "honest abe" faq that said they'd ship in October of 2012. Roll Eyes

Yep... I've been saying this since December...

Hindsight bias is amazing.

They knew damn well they wouldn't have products in October/November.

How do you know that they knew this when they gave initial estimates? You're implying that they were competent enough to understand all of the challenges.
full member
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April 09, 2013, 08:38:41 PM
#15
Hopefully some thieves

Shipping late is theft? I better go change the legislation.

Holy crap dude really? You still think they're *JUST* incompetent?

Please explain to me how there was ever a > 0% chance of any ASIC mining products leaving Butterfly Labs during 2012.

You don't understand. The chance can be 0% but if they don't realise that due to incompetence then they're not lying, just stupid.
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April 09, 2013, 08:37:35 PM
#14
That's guilty in and of itself, but most people will give more time-- so we do! Another month. Then another. Then another. How much guilt do you need to call someone guilty of lying?

No amount of delays turns it into a lie.

Find me internal documentation from BFL showing a projected ship date of 2013 along with "let's lie and say it will be done in 2012" and I'll believe you. Until then, it's a straight-up case of amateurs trying to get into the ASIC business and not having any fucking idea of what they're doing.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
April 09, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
#13
Not incompetence. Fraud. That's the point.
legendary
Activity: 1484
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In Cryptocoins I Trust
April 09, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
#12
Holy crap dude really? You still think they're *JUST* incompetent?

Please explain to me how there was ever a > 0% chance of any ASIC mining products leaving Butterfly Labs during 2012. Then explain to me how BFL staff could have possibly failed to recognize this fact for months while they continuously told pre-order victims that they'd "scheduled shipments" x number of days or weeks in the future. Then there's the official "honest abe" faq that said they'd ship in October of 2012. Roll Eyes

Yep... I've been saying this since December... They knew damn well they wouldn't have products in October/November.

They lied and continue to lie to collect more pre-order monies and deter refunds.

I believe they are getting close now, but I still think they are giving overly optimistic dates like "next week".

Next week... every week.

Ah.. I love being an Avalon customer and not having to worry about BFL's incompetence.

PS: just ignore nathanrees19... he's just a BFL fan boi Wink
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
April 09, 2013, 07:52:26 PM
#11
Hopefully some thieves

Shipping late is theft? I better go change the legislation.

Holy crap dude really? You still think they're *JUST* incompetent?

Please explain to me how there was ever a > 0% chance of any ASIC mining products leaving Butterfly Labs during 2012. Then explain to me how BFL staff could have possibly failed to recognize this fact for months while they continuously told pre-order victims that they'd "scheduled shipments" x number of days or weeks in the future. Then there's the official "honest abe" faq that said they'd ship in October of 2012. Roll Eyes
legendary
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Merit: 1002
April 09, 2013, 07:47:35 PM
#10
to the OP...thats downright AWESOME!
hero member
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April 09, 2013, 07:47:10 PM
#9
Hopefully some thieves

Shipping late is theft? I better go change the legislation.

I'm one for "innocent until proven guilty", so let's look at the facts:

  • A company takes money for a product that they say they will give by a certain time
  • They fail to provide that product by that time

That's guilty in and of itself, but most people will give more time-- so we do! Another month. Then another. Then another. How much guilt do you need to call someone guilty of lying? And if the lie is related to a promise of service/product after receiving payments, how many decades does it take to know for sure they scammed you?

This isn't a community "misunderstanding", nor is it an unfair "guilty until proven innocent" assessment. It's a very natural reaction to a company who has never provided a product people paid for. When they provide it, just as it is in court, the evidence will set them free (for the most part), but until then you seem to be defending something you admit is wrong. Why?

No one is saying they can't make spiffy cases (I love their cases!), but you can't mine bitcoins with fans alone.
legendary
Activity: 2464
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Be A Digital Miner
April 09, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
#8
Fraud would be telling someone you are shipping next week WHEN YOU KNOW THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

It's nice how it's obvious after it happens, right?
No, it was obvious several times to Josh wasn't it?  Why deny it?  Several times he has said he is a week from shipping BEFORE HE EVEN BUILT A PROTOTYPE.
That would be fraud.
full member
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April 09, 2013, 07:40:17 PM
#7
Fraud would be telling someone you are shipping next week WHEN YOU KNOW THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

It's nice how it's obvious after it happens, right?
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