Big companies finally had enough of the excessive tax - page 8.

Silberman

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Quote from: harizen on June 21, 2021, 05:05:08 PM

Quote from: Fredomago on June 21, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

For people who can afford and willing to continue even that huge amount of implemented taxes there's no stopping them to partake with this activities.

It makes sense. Just like how people treat the increase of sin tax in tobacco, liquor, etc. They don't bother with the tax as long as they want to take part in it.

In other words, people know how to adjust and there will be a time that they are now used to experience an increased tax.

Gambling operators also know how to adjust if ever they will be imposed by the additional tax of the government. They will pass it to their customers in a way that is not noticeable or proposed a win-win situation for both parties.

There is also yet another possibility, when the tax on something is too high like on liquor or cigarettes people will find products that did not paid those taxes and that are cheaper because of it, this is why governments need to be careful about how they tax something as too high taxes can generate black markets, and the same is true for services which is the category in wich gambling falls, if the taxes are too high then illegal casinos will appear and people will prefer them over the legal ones simply because they give better odds.

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Quote from: qwertyup23 on June 17, 2021, 05:25:59 PM

Quote from: Woodie on June 13, 2021, 02:05:01 PM

One effect of the high taxes: Maybe the high taxes a meant to discourage Gamblers from playing a lot because this pandemic can turn users into addicts and this is one way to slow the process down.

The other effect from these high rates is going completely anonymous which means a missed opportunity for the government to collect revenue from gamblers as they will find alternative places to play the games they love.

I do support this view.

The taxing power is limitless as it is one of the three (3) inherent powers of the government where they can exercise it for revenue or preventive measures. The twenty percent (20%) excise tax is imposed primarily to discourage the people from gambling due to its negative effects in the society. While this measure is not an absolute guarantee that businesses will opt not to enter the gambling industry, it is nevertheless a revenue measure for the government that will enable them to create projects from such revenue.

the problem happens when lobby affects the decisions of the government on what should be allowed or not and what should be taxes or not.

curious that I just read Rothbard's book: Anatomy of the state
so I may be a bit biased against the possibilities ofthe government to make good decisions

Grin

mv1986

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Quote from: alegotardo on June 21, 2021, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: mv1986 on June 19, 2021, 06:33:25 PM

Most of the big companies involved with gambling have very complex corporate structures that save them shit loads of tax payments anyway.

Exact, and for those unable to pay taxes, there is always the possibility of migrating to a country where fees are more affordable. This is clear for gambling that operates entirely over the internet.

For physical bookmakers this is a little more complicated, but it could be worse since there are several countries that don't even allow this type of venture.

Yes, if you are an online casino provider, my lord you have all the freedom in the world. You can literally do whatever you want and it is also almost impossible to successfully sue you. So many online casinos have been operated in countries where it was forbidden. They just said "Players from xxx are not allowed", but they let you use a VPN and there you go. It is almost unstoppable if you run online casinos only.

harizen

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Quote from: Fredomago on June 21, 2021, 11:43:50 AM

For people who can afford and willing to continue even that huge amount of implemented taxes there's no stopping them to partake with this activities.

It makes sense. Just like how people treat the increase of sin tax in tobacco, liquor, etc. They don't bother with the tax as long as they want to take part in it.

In other words, people know how to adjust and there will be a time that they are now used to experience an increased tax.

Gambling operators also know how to adjust if ever they will be imposed by the additional tax of the government. They will pass it to their customers in a way that is not noticeable or proposed a win-win situation for both parties.

Fredomago

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Quote from: Wexnident on June 20, 2021, 03:57:09 AM

Quote from: TheGreatPython on June 19, 2021, 03:29:40 PM

I think every business that is destined to make people's lives worse should be taxed very very heavily. However at what point are you doing something that is against freedom? For example beer is bad for you, it is not healthy and if you drink too much beer for too long you will die, that is a known fact but its legal and you can buy it and drink it if you want, for a world where many drugs are bad for you and illegal, for some reason things like beer and cigarettes are allowed.

So if you say 500%+ tax on the price and 50% tax on the income for something like beer, so instead of 3 bucks its 15 bucks per beer, would that be against freedom? I think many people will say so, but then how can you allow weed to be illegal in many nations? Long story short there is a line there but it is a blury line and nobody really knows what to do about these things.

I'd argue here that casinos aren't businesses designed to make your life worse. It's just there as an establishment, business, as a casino. It in no way forces anyone to actually partake in their business and the person themselves is solely at fault if their lives were ruined due to addiction. Same idea with beers, tobacco, etc. Sides, price increase only pushes people to spend more on it since if they really want to buy it, they'd still do it. Most people have already experienced it anyway, prices increasing gradually throughout time, it didn't really stop them.

For people who can afford and willing to continue even that huge amount of implemented taxes there's no stopping them to partake with this activities.

Just like what the post above said, there's a line between, as there are different opinions and acceptances. But again, it's business if you have the guts to take the risk and you still see the potentials, anyway structures always favorable to the owners they'll find ways to make sure that they'll survive.

alegotardo

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Quote from: mv1986 on June 19, 2021, 06:33:25 PM

Most of the big companies involved with gambling have very complex corporate structures that save them shit loads of tax payments anyway.

Exact, and for those unable to pay taxes, there is always the possibility of migrating to a country where fees are more affordable. This is clear for gambling that operates entirely over the internet.

For physical bookmakers this is a little more complicated, but it could be worse since there are several countries that don't even allow this type of venture.

mv1986

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Quote from: RokokGudangGaram on June 20, 2021, 02:51:14 AM

Quote from: mv1986 on June 19, 2021, 06:33:25 PM

Quote from: alegotardo on June 19, 2021, 06:12:31 AM

Quote from: fiulpro on June 13, 2021, 01:24:37 PM

20%? Is this even real ? Most of the companies not related to gambling pay lower than 10% but not the same in Kenya when it comes to the sports gambling. Now the biggest football clubs have joined hands to oppose this rule.
[...]
What do you think ?

I think that every tax on what is harmful should always be increased to discourage people from consuming that product or service.
Some examples of what I am saying are... cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, hookers and also gambling.

I see, I'm starting a controversial discussion, but given the need for greater tax collection, it's preferable to raise the rates of non-essential and harmful services to the population (whether in terms of health or finance) than for other essential services.

Of course, every tax increase is bad and it needs to be done reasonably when it's unavoidable.

This is indeed an approach you suggested that I can very well comprehend and from a first glance there isn't much that speaks against your suggestion. Raising tax in the business sector that harms small innovative companies is definitely worse than raising tax on cigarettes and alcohol, gambling and prostitution.

Most of the big companies involved with gambling have very complex corporate structures that save them shit loads of tax payments anyway.

That also seems true to me and the companies of gambling sites that really make a lot of money will undoubtedly have set up certain constructions so that the money can be funneled through other channels and countries. they really don't pay the top price of their turnover, they would be crazy if they do. Tax avoidance is allowed, evasion is not. As long as they stick to that it's not a problem

And if one industry on this planet understands very well how to avoid taxes, it is definitely the gambling industry. There are good reasons for all those casinos to be registered in Cayman Islands and alike. You are probably not going to find a single casino that is registered in a state in the European Union except for Malta and Cyprus. Even as a private individual you can easily set up a structure within a day that let's you live almost tax free. You have to move though of course or at least be more than 6 months out of your home country.

Wexnident

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Quote from: TheGreatPython on June 19, 2021, 03:29:40 PM

I think every business that is destined to make people's lives worse should be taxed very very heavily. However at what point are you doing something that is against freedom? For example beer is bad for you, it is not healthy and if you drink too much beer for too long you will die, that is a known fact but its legal and you can buy it and drink it if you want, for a world where many drugs are bad for you and illegal, for some reason things like beer and cigarettes are allowed.

So if you say 500%+ tax on the price and 50% tax on the income for something like beer, so instead of 3 bucks its 15 bucks per beer, would that be against freedom? I think many people will say so, but then how can you allow weed to be illegal in many nations? Long story short there is a line there but it is a blury line and nobody really knows what to do about these things.

I'd argue here that casinos aren't businesses designed to make your life worse. It's just there as an establishment, business, as a casino. It in no way forces anyone to actually partake in their business and the person themselves is solely at fault if their lives were ruined due to addiction. Same idea with beers, tobacco, etc. Sides, price increase only pushes people to spend more on it since if they really want to buy it, they'd still do it. Most people have already experienced it anyway, prices increasing gradually throughout time, it didn't really stop them.

RokokGudangGaram

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Quote from: mv1986 on June 19, 2021, 06:33:25 PM

Quote from: alegotardo on June 19, 2021, 06:12:31 AM

Quote from: fiulpro on June 13, 2021, 01:24:37 PM

20%? Is this even real ? Most of the companies not related to gambling pay lower than 10% but not the same in Kenya when it comes to the sports gambling. Now the biggest football clubs have joined hands to oppose this rule.
[...]
What do you think ?

I think that every tax on what is harmful should always be increased to discourage people from consuming that product or service.
Some examples of what I am saying are... cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, hookers and also gambling.

I see, I'm starting a controversial discussion, but given the need for greater tax collection, it's preferable to raise the rates of non-essential and harmful services to the population (whether in terms of health or finance) than for other essential services.

Of course, every tax increase is bad and it needs to be done reasonably when it's unavoidable.

This is indeed an approach you suggested that I can very well comprehend and from a first glance there isn't much that speaks against your suggestion. Raising tax in the business sector that harms small innovative companies is definitely worse than raising tax on cigarettes and alcohol, gambling and prostitution.

Most of the big companies involved with gambling have very complex corporate structures that save them shit loads of tax payments anyway.

That also seems true to me and the companies of gambling sites that really make a lot of money will undoubtedly have set up certain constructions so that the money can be funneled through other channels and countries. they really don't pay the top price of their turnover, they would be crazy if they do. Tax avoidance is allowed, evasion is not. As long as they stick to that it's not a problem

mv1986

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Quote from: STT on June 19, 2021, 06:49:01 PM

Quote

raise cash for the financial year amid the struggles

This whole idea is a tale as old as time, government short of money seeks to confiscate funds from private people and company operations. What is proper policy is to increase revenue in order that government is supported by a country doing better, to confiscate is too close to ending that business, sector or people even may flee the country. This isnt an alien event in any country really, I can remember reading about how The Beatles famous band of the 60's were forced to leave the country and record an album on a remote tropical island where they would not lose most of their earnings. The UK government later went broke in the 1970's unable to balance their budget the IMF had to bail them out and they would reform and revise laws in order to aid business not destroy and take funds, took a decade to fix though at least. Very common unfortunately and the currency lost a great deal of value.

I am not a proponent of high taxation, but to me it seems you told only half the story.

"https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world"

The US is not, that is supposed to be the question of the article. The fact of the matter is that among the top ten are the most secure, developed, peaceful and satisfied nations in the world despite also facing the ten highest tax rates in the world. It is not as easy as many people put it: high tax and people have to flee the country. This graph clearly shows that there is more to the story. I have been to nine out of ten countries from the ten highest taxed countries and I felt safe and comfortable in everyone of them. I don't think high taxation is the problem, but rather what people get for it in return. At the same time are people always able to still appreciate what they actually have compared to others in poorer nations with possibly lower taxes?

STT

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Quote

raise cash for the financial year amid the struggles

This whole idea is a tale as old as time, government short of money seeks to confiscate funds from private people and company operations. What is proper policy is to increase revenue in order that government is supported by a country doing better, to confiscate is too close to ending that business, sector or people even may flee the country. This isnt an alien event in any country really, I can remember reading about how The Beatles famous band of the 60's were forced to leave the country and record an album on a remote tropical island where they would not lose most of their earnings. The UK government later went broke in the 1970's unable to balance their budget the IMF had to bail them out and they would reform and revise laws in order to aid business not destroy and take funds, took a decade to fix though at least. Very common unfortunately and the currency lost a great deal of value.

mv1986

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Quote from: alegotardo on June 19, 2021, 06:12:31 AM

Quote from: fiulpro on June 13, 2021, 01:24:37 PM

20%? Is this even real ? Most of the companies not related to gambling pay lower than 10% but not the same in Kenya when it comes to the sports gambling. Now the biggest football clubs have joined hands to oppose this rule.
[...]
What do you think ?

I think that every tax on what is harmful should always be increased to discourage people from consuming that product or service.
Some examples of what I am saying are... cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, hookers and also gambling.

I see, I'm starting a controversial discussion, but given the need for greater tax collection, it's preferable to raise the rates of non-essential and harmful services to the population (whether in terms of health or finance) than for other essential services.

Of course, every tax increase is bad and it needs to be done reasonably when it's unavoidable.

This is indeed an approach you suggested that I can very well comprehend and from a first glance there isn't much that speaks against your suggestion. Raising tax in the business sector that harms small innovative companies is definitely worse than raising tax on cigarettes and alcohol, gambling and prostitution.

Most of the big companies involved with gambling have very complex corporate structures that save them shit loads of tax payments anyway.

jrrsparkles

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Quote from: cabalism13 on June 19, 2021, 03:35:37 PM

Quote from: Sanitough on June 19, 2021, 03:29:04 PM

Quote from: jrrsparkles on June 19, 2021, 01:47:05 PM

Government will say that gambling is sinful act so people won't gamble a lot if they have to pay huge tax from their earnings which story applies to the liquor and cigarettes or any tobacco which legally approved by governments still they don't encourage people using it just with the taxes but their aim is to make the people to pay more and no government is here to help a common man, they just favour the big companies so they can get bribed in the election times.

In our country, they call it a sin tax, the government charged high taxes on liquor and tobacco but the company is not not really affected, but the consumer since they add up it to the price resulting in a high price. On gambling taxes, I think this is not applicable as casinos are tax according to their income, and even if the government will charge a high tax or let's say an excessive tax, they will still be profitable.

Another way to get money,
GOVERNMENT: " Let's add some more taxes on these casinos"
Casinos: (less players and less exposure) = Bankcrupt
Says only the shitty government will be the one on the profitable side as a common thing will be such a butthurt for new Casinos, excessive taxes can affect them real biggy, if they got little marketing. Added taxes will only be infavorable with Big Ones.

You are correct, casinos even have to pay the taxes for their earnings so no matter either the gambling owner losses or the gambler losses the government is literally going to make money in the name of taxes for their every bets. Taxes keep us poor and if you want to avoid paying high taxes then there are certain ways legally which needs strategical and tricky minds like Warren Buffet. Cheesy

goinmerry

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Quote from: cabalism13 on June 19, 2021, 03:35:37 PM

Another way to get money,
GOVERNMENT: " Let's add some more taxes on these casinos"
Casinos: (less players and less exposure) = Bankcrupt

If the timing is good then no question about it. Gambling is a top performer industry during the pandemic and tax coming from it is very useful if used properly.

Even people say that they have no money, they can find a way just to gamble.

Actually, added taxation to the casinos is just fine if it was implemented properly like slowly and the government is seriously targeting illegal gambling operators so that people will only choose those legit gambling operators.

smyslov

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Quote from: cabalism13 on June 19, 2021, 03:35:37 PM

Another way to get money,
GOVERNMENT: " Let's add some more taxes on these casinos"
Casinos: (less players and less exposure) = Bankcrupt
Says only the shitty government will be the one on the profitable side as a common thing will be such a butthurt for new Casinos, excessive taxes can affect them real biggy, if they got little marketing. Added taxes will only be infavorable with Big Ones.

A country that imposes a huge percentage of taxes on gambling is not conducive to gambling, that is why gambling companies when they can transfer to countries or location, where gambling is conducive and the government gives them a good percentage when it comes to tax because they understand that not only taxes, they also going to employ people and tie up with companies and that's additional taxes and revenues for the government.

cabalism13

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Quote from: Sanitough on June 19, 2021, 03:29:04 PM

Quote from: jrrsparkles on June 19, 2021, 01:47:05 PM

Government will say that gambling is sinful act so people won't gamble a lot if they have to pay huge tax from their earnings which story applies to the liquor and cigarettes or any tobacco which legally approved by governments still they don't encourage people using it just with the taxes but their aim is to make the people to pay more and no government is here to help a common man, they just favour the big companies so they can get bribed in the election times.

In our country, they call it a sin tax, the government charged high taxes on liquor and tobacco but the company is not not really affected, but the consumer since they add up it to the price resulting in a high price. On gambling taxes, I think this is not applicable as casinos are tax according to their income, and even if the government will charge a high tax or let's say an excessive tax, they will still be profitable.

Another way to get money,
GOVERNMENT: " Let's add some more taxes on these casinos"
Casinos: (less players and less exposure) = Bankcrupt
Says only the shitty government will be the one on the profitable side as a common thing will be such a butthurt for new Casinos, excessive taxes can affect them real biggy, if they got little marketing. Added taxes will only be infavorable with Big Ones.

TheGreatPython

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Quote from: alegotardo on June 19, 2021, 06:12:31 AM

I think that every tax on what is harmful should always be increased to discourage people from consuming that product or service.
Some examples of what I am saying are... cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, hookers and also gambling.

I see, I'm starting a controversial discussion, but given the need for greater tax collection, it's preferable to raise the rates of non-essential and harmful services to the population (whether in terms of health or finance) than for other essential services.

Of course, every tax increase is bad and it needs to be done reasonably when it's unavoidable.

I think every business that is destined to make people's lives worse should be taxed very very heavily. However at what point are you doing something that is against freedom? For example beer is bad for you, it is not healthy and if you drink too much beer for too long you will die, that is a known fact but its legal and you can buy it and drink it if you want, for a world where many drugs are bad for you and illegal, for some reason things like beer and cigarettes are allowed.

So if you say 500%+ tax on the price and 50% tax on the income for something like beer, so instead of 3 bucks its 15 bucks per beer, would that be against freedom? I think many people will say so, but then how can you allow weed to be illegal in many nations? Long story short there is a line there but it is a blury line and nobody really knows what to do about these things.

Sanitough

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Quote from: jrrsparkles on June 19, 2021, 01:47:05 PM

Government will say that gambling is sinful act so people won't gamble a lot if they have to pay huge tax from their earnings which story applies to the liquor and cigarettes or any tobacco which legally approved by governments still they don't encourage people using it just with the taxes but their aim is to make the people to pay more and no government is here to help a common man, they just favour the big companies so they can get bribed in the election times.

In our country, they call it a sin tax, the government charged high taxes on liquor and tobacco but the company is not not really affected, but the consumer since they add up it to the price resulting in a high price. On gambling taxes, I think this is not applicable as casinos are tax according to their income, and even if the government will charge a high tax or let's say an excessive tax, they will still be profitable.

Silberman

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Quote from: Yogee on June 13, 2021, 01:45:23 PM

Quote

In a bid to raise cash for the financial year amid the struggles caused by the Covid-19 pandemic, Treasury Cabinet Secretary Ukur Yattani has reintroduced the tax, which was removed by President Uhuru Kenyatta in July last year.

I understand that people can become emotional everytime they see tax hikes or new taxes to be implemented but can we have the numbers before and after the tax was removed?

The proposal would tax the gamblers and not the casino or bookie. These companies thinks it would affected indirectly since one of the aim of the law is to discourage players but does that really stop them from gambling?

Where I live the tax is even higher than that so this is nothing new to me and yes this discourages gambling as no one wants to pay such a high tax so I think they have a point, we need to understand that everyone is having a hard time because of the pandemic and the worst thing that a government can do to an industry is to raise taxes right now, also companies hate instability, just one year ago this tax was repealed and now it is being brought back, I can assure you that even if the tax was revoked one year later many companies will not invest in this market for a long time for fear of being forced to deal with this situation again.

toast

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this is an age-old problem and companies are getting more and more resourceful with the help of the right lawyers and accountants. you often see that in countries like the Seychelles certain business structures are set up and all the money is funneled there, that's what you get from those sky-high tax rates.

Topic: Big companies finally had enough of the excessive tax - page 8. (Read 2411 times)