Bitcoin as a speculative asset or as currency - page 4.

Dragonfund

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Quote from: zanezane on August 02, 2021, 02:15:47 PM

Can it be both because I believe that bitcoin is comprised of factors that is unique to currency and speculative asset. Plus there's nothing wrong with both because it adds some character of some sort to bitcoin being debated whether it's an asset or a currency.

Physically, there are still some properties bitcoin need to exhibit before it can fully be regarded as currency.
Bitcoin might be divisible, value, exchange between parties and spend within or anywhere in the world but if we want bitcoin to be used as currency, we should try and consider other part of the world who doesn't have the ability to get some due to their current situation such as access to internet, education and knowledge about the whole thing and money.
Some people knows fiat as money because they used it everyday but if you asked them more about money, they know nothing about it. Now tell me, how do you plan to implement bitcoin on those areas? It will be so difficult to used by everyone.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

but JPMorgan Chase are now offering Bitcoin to a range of clients

It may not matter much, but afaik they offer Bitcoin fund and Bitcoin related derivative products, not actual bitcoin.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value?

The question is important and the answer is not easy, not yet. With the wide (wild) price fluctuations it's still risky - at least for short term - to see bitcoin as store of value. Of course, in time the price change should get somewhere near to gold (i.e. boring) and then we can say loudly that we have a store of value. Until then it's still more a speculative asset than a store of value. Still, at various degrees, it's both.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

Also bitcoin high transaction fee, is it not related to this? Because the lower the fee the more Bitcoin will fit into the currency category.

Imho tx fees are not rising based on normal day by day use of average Joe, they rise basically when traders get woken up. When price fluctuations will be boring, this will not happen anymore and we will see if we have a problem with high tx fees.

Quote from: just_Alice on August 04, 2021, 05:25:04 PM

For most people, it’s something in between. They want to make transactions without being traced, but, at the same time, accumulate Bitcoin and subconsciously wish for the price to grow to make a profit.

Actually most people don't even know good enough what bitcoin is. They've heard about its price. And then they'll probably answer "speculative asset". But as said, you better answer what it is for you.
And yeah, bitcoin is traceable unless you mix/coinjoin...

Gyfts

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Both, probably.

You ask someone in the first world that is middle/high income, they'll treat it as a speculative asset because they don't believe Bitcoin has intrinsic value. To be fair, there is no intrinsic value of Bitcoin, but neither is any other currency that isn't backed by a gold standard. But, take away the stable currency that people rely on to accumulate their wealth, for whatever reason, be it inflation, political battles, war, whatever - does Bitcoin act as a currency then? When your traditional currencies fail? Yes.

Kong Hey Pakboy

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Quote from: just_Alice on August 04, 2021, 05:25:04 PM

There is no single answer to this question. To whom? Investors, banks, the government - Bitcoin is an asset to them, they want it to be and they fear it becoming a widely used currency, thus, they collaborate and try to offer a misleading alternative - digital currencies, like Yuan.

For most people, it’s something in between. They want to make transactions without being traced, but, at the same time, accumulate Bitcoin and subconsciously wish for the price to grow to make a profit.

Well, you can answer it based on your standings, remember that it's alright to have a diverse answer to promote a healthy discussion because it helps us see differing perspective. For me, a normal person, I see it as both, it can be an asset that grows overtime and I can invest in it and I also see it as a currency because it's been used before and I've used it myself.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: just_Alice on August 04, 2021, 05:25:04 PM

There is no single answer to this question. To whom? Investors, banks, the government - Bitcoin is an asset to them, they want it to be and they fear it becoming a widely used currency, thus, they collaborate and try to offer a misleading alternative - digital currencies, like Yuan.

For most people, it’s something in between. They want to make transactions without being traced, but, at the same time, accumulate Bitcoin and subconsciously wish for the price to grow to make a profit.

It is not "something in between". Bitcoin is suitable for most purposes. BTW, even the US Dollar can be used for investment purposes. Trillions of USD worth of treasury notes and bonds have been issued by the US government. And these bonds/notes are essentially US Dollar which is used for investment purposes. Regarding Bitcoin, it was originally designed as a currency. But nowadays, it is used for multiple purposes - for making payments, as a store of value, and finally as a speculative investment asset.

verita1

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Bitcoin is no longer a speculative asset as described by governments that have banned it, such as China, India, among others, in order to convince their population not to trust it.
But as large, recognized institutions and entrepreneurs have invested in bitcoin, they have broken that paradigm. There are advantages to investing in bitcoin and they cannot be covered with a finger, it represents the backing of the investments.

Undoubtedly those who are investing large amounts of money in bitcoin know that it is a store of value.
Bitcoin is disrupting money and the way to a great ecosystem that has been created with cryptocurrencies, better finances are being created every day thanks to this change in technologies.

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Currently BTC is being taken as a currency in some countries, "El Salvador" is one of the countries with the highest adoption by BTC, and it is incredible that a country like "El Salvador" before Europe and North America have that concept However, BTC is a currency that has a lot of speculation in the market, I think that now apart from "El Salvador" Paraguay is going to join the party of the adoption of BTC as a currency, if this happens it will not only be an instrument of speculation in the market will be taken into account as it always should be, a leading currency worldwide.

Venezuela is a country that despite all its unsustainable problems of all kinds, has not taken BTC into account as official currency, but the same government uses BTC for its international transactions to bypass the prohibitions with the USA, this is a clear example that There are already countries using BTC as a currency even above the dollar.

just_Alice

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There is no single answer to this question. To whom? Investors, banks, the government - Bitcoin is an asset to them, they want it to be and they fear it becoming a widely used currency, thus, they collaborate and try to offer a misleading alternative - digital currencies, like Yuan.

For most people, it’s something in between. They want to make transactions without being traced, but, at the same time, accumulate Bitcoin and subconsciously wish for the price to grow to make a profit.

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Quote from: gwdf1 on August 04, 2021, 09:34:00 AM

I am afraid I disagree that Bitcoin is an anonymous currency and the government can’t monitor it. All your transactions are placed in the blockchain, so everything is clear.

Nobody mentioned Bitcoin as an anonymous currency, Bitcoin can be used by experienced users and maintain high privacy level, but it is not an anonymous currency. Coins like Monero are regarded as anonymous currency because their transactions are not transparent, no open ledger available for such anonymous cryptocurrencies unlike Bitcoin, so Bitcoin is not anonymous as it's transactions is visible on blockchain and can be seen by blockchain obeservers.

Quote from: gwdf1 on August 04, 2021, 09:34:00 AM

Especially if you interact with centralised exchanges, they can trace how your money moves and then connect your address with your identity. Nowadays the only private crypto is Monero.

Not your key not your coin, centralized services like centralized exchanges does not only make you not to have privacy, it makes you not to have the total control over your funds. To have the freedom, you needed to go for noncustodial wallet. And not only that, you will need to monitor your inputs and outputs, making use of mixers and CoinJoin when necessary while ricochet is also important after CoinJoin to make transactions no tainted as illegal when making use of centralized service like during purchase.

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Quote from: gwdf1 on August 04, 2021, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

For privacy reasons, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin evolved to make privacy possible, Bitcoin gives freedom in a way your money (bitcoin) can not be monitored by the government, that void of privacy which could be horrible.

I am afraid I disagree that Bitcoin is an anonymous currency and the government can’t monitor it. All your transactions are placed in the blockchain, so everything is clear. Especially if you interact with centralised exchanges, they can trace how your money moves and then connect your address with your identity. Nowadays the only private crypto is Monero.

With blockchain technology I think all transactions are clear and transparent,
Of course, this kind of thing is not owned by Traditional Banks,
so we don't have to worry too much and that helps a lot

oHnK

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Quote from: lumierre on August 04, 2021, 10:17:57 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

It is said that the central banks are nervous about Bitcoin to be used as a currency but just as a store of value like gold and silver. That if Bitcoin is emerging as a currency, going mainstream and people using it as direct payment, this can still lead to governments trying all possible means to intervene which can be the biggest issue and threat towards Bitcoin adoption. That governments power and influence over their people are their currency, and government will not want to lose the control.

You are right that the government doesn’t want to lose its authority, so they want to replace crypto currencies by creating digital state currencies. I don't believe in any digital state currencies. They will still be regulated by the government. The main feature of digital money is decentralisation and uncontrollability from authorities, but digital euros, rubles, yuan will be under control, so it is the same as just non-cash money but on blockchain instead of bank account.

In fact, no government anywhere is happy if its power is limited, let alone hampered. Not only Crypto will make it difficult for a centralized government, Fiat in other countries is not easy to become legal fiat for a country. For example, Indonesia does not recognize other currencies as a means of transaction, only Rupiah and the only legal currency. Even if you bring thousands of dollars it is not legal to transact in Indonesia. You have to change ur dollar first.

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Quote from: gwdf1 on August 04, 2021, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

For privacy reasons, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin evolved to make privacy possible, Bitcoin gives freedom in a way your money (bitcoin) can not be monitored by the government, that void of privacy which could be horrible.

I am afraid I disagree that Bitcoin is an anonymous currency and the government can’t monitor it. All your transactions are placed in the blockchain, so everything is clear. Especially if you interact with centralised exchanges, they can trace how your money moves and then connect your address with your identity. Nowadays the only private crypto is Monero.

and in the end the crypto money is converted to fiat currency, and in the exchange there is the identity of the user, so it is clear to whom the money is spinning. I think this is just an alibi or a political game, but what is certain now is that bitcoin functions more effectively as a trading tool or a profitable investment tool.

lumierre

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

It is said that the central banks are nervous about Bitcoin to be used as a currency but just as a store of value like gold and silver. That if Bitcoin is emerging as a currency, going mainstream and people using it as direct payment, this can still lead to governments trying all possible means to intervene which can be the biggest issue and threat towards Bitcoin adoption. That governments power and influence over their people are their currency, and government will not want to lose the control.

You are right that the government doesn’t want to lose its authority, so they want to replace crypto currencies by creating digital state currencies. I don't believe in any digital state currencies. They will still be regulated by the government. The main feature of digital money is decentralisation and uncontrollability from authorities, but digital euros, rubles, yuan will be under control, so it is the same as just non-cash money but on blockchain instead of bank account.

gwdf1

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 06:42:52 AM

For privacy reasons, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin evolved to make privacy possible, Bitcoin gives freedom in a way your money (bitcoin) can not be monitored by the government, that void of privacy which could be horrible.

I am afraid I disagree that Bitcoin is an anonymous currency and the government can’t monitor it. All your transactions are placed in the blockchain, so everything is clear. Especially if you interact with centralised exchanges, they can trace how your money moves and then connect your address with your identity. Nowadays the only private crypto is Monero.

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Quote from: Ryder Kudrow on August 04, 2021, 05:50:39 AM

The price of Bitcoin is unstable and volatile. Many people like to use it as an investment currency. Buying and holding Bitcoin for a long time can get a lot of benefits.
There are also many regions that allow and support bitcoin payment, which can be used as currency to buy or transaction.

That means that it's a bit of both speculative and currency. I think it's a bit of both too because it's been used for buying stuff in the past so I don't think that it could go one way. But for now, I feel like speculative asset is what's dominating in terms of our definition of bitcoin.

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Quote from: Kiley33 on August 03, 2021, 03:34:26 AM

If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

Bitcoin and currency are very different. Bitcoin can be used as a means of payment, not currency because it is volatile, in contrast to fiat currency whose value remains the same even though it is stored for years. Sometimes it is made speculative, because if it is stored and its value can increase or decrease.

I guess you're confused with how currency works.
Bitcoin is called cryptoCURRENCY because it is a currency.
If it is accepted as a means of payment, that means it's a currency.
Bitcoin hasn't been usually used as a currency because of it's volatility. Instead it has been used as a store of value and a speculative asset.
Though there are people who are actually using Bitcoin as a currency in a daily basis.

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Quote from: Ryder Kudrow on August 04, 2021, 05:50:39 AM

The price of Bitcoin is unstable and volatile. Many people like to use it as an investment currency. Buying and holding Bitcoin for a long time can get a lot of benefits.
There are also many regions that allow and support bitcoin payment, which can be used as currency to buy or transaction.

Yeah people go on it just because the possibilities to earn and only few use it as a currency, we know how volatile it is that's why people have split thought's regarding on this but let see how we can define it on future since for now whatever you believe what it is then let it be since there's no right or wrong answer with this. But hopefully we see more adoption so that we can establish bitcoin as currency and not a investment option for others.

Ryder Kudrow

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The price of Bitcoin is unstable and volatile. Many people like to use it as an investment currency. Buying and holding Bitcoin for a long time can get a lot of benefits.
There are also many regions that allow and support bitcoin payment, which can be used as currency to buy or transaction.

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Quote from: Kittygalore on July 28, 2021, 06:52:20 AM

It's a bit annoying but I still believe that it is a combination of both speculative asset and currency, because I believe that it can do the work of those two, I mean Laszlo has used bitcoin for two pizzas right so I don't think that we can't discount the fact that it can be used like a currency entirely.

Valid point.

Bitcoin is both a currency and a speculative asset. Bitcoin is really intended to be used upon transactions, only that it is decentralized. However, due to limited available counter and establishments that accept bitcoin as a payment method, bitcoin as a currency is seldom recognized. Although there are a lot of companies now that has open their doors to bitcoin adoption, we still need more to be able to fully utilize it in transactions. The processing fee and transaction fees need to be improved as well. Higher fees and slow processing time of each transaction hinder the users to transact using bitcoin. Meanwhile, bitcoin's volatility makes it a good speculative asset that is why most people invest on it nowadays. Bitcoin provides more opportunities to gain profit in short term and long term. It's just up for the people to decide which they will do.

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Quote from: Kiley33 on August 03, 2021, 03:34:26 AM

If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

Bitcoin and currency are very different. Bitcoin can be used as a means of payment, not currency because it is volatile, in contrast to fiat currency whose value remains the same even though it is stored for years. Sometimes it is made speculative, because if it is stored and its value can increase or decrease.

I think bitcoin will be like that for some time but bitcoin can be used as payment. Not many people will be comfortable using bitcoin to pay for something at the store. Besides that, not many local stores are available in one country that accepts bitcoin as the payment option besides of use fiat money.

So I think bitcoin still be an investment because the price is too volatile to be used as a payment system. Maybe for the next few years, bitcoin will still be an investment for people to make money from bitcoin and save bitcoin for their future.

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