Bitcoin as a speculative asset or as currency - page 5.

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Quote from: gwdf1 on August 03, 2021, 01:53:37 AM

To my mind, nowadays Bitcoin is considered to be a speculative asset rather than a means of payment. People buy it to earn money, but not to pay for services or ghosts. Moreover, it is not allowed in the majority of countries. But, in my opinion, we will use Bitcoin to pay within time. Even now different companies (Tesla, Amazon) think about it, and countries (Solvador) accept it as the national.

utility for payment not adopted yet now around the world , and most investors thinking bitcoin as assets to hold for gaining profits in several months or year . Several super power countries haven't allow it yet to set as currency or investment portofolio, but giant company already realize bitcoin as future technology in payment system , even Paypal CEO said about it.

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Bitcoin and currency are very different. Bitcoin can be used as a means of payment, not currency because it is volatile, in contrast to fiat currency whose value remains the same even though it is stored for years. Sometimes it is made speculative, because if it is stored and its value can increase or decrease.

i think we have double benefits in bitcoin , first as investment portofolio and in the same time it accepted as payment system. Payment and currency was totally different , we could not generalize it.

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Quote from: Kiley33 on August 03, 2021, 02:34:26 AM

If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

Bitcoin and currency are very different. Bitcoin can be used as a means of payment, not currency because it is volatile, in contrast to fiat currency whose value remains the same even though it is stored for years. Sometimes it is made speculative, because if it is stored and its value can increase or decrease.

The sentences seem to contradict each other.
It's a currency, no doubt. You use it for payment then it means it is a currency.
It became an asset when investors saw a possibility for demands to go higher but at the end of the day, it will, and will always be a currency.

Right now, we can stay on keeping it as an asset because the future is unknown. Although I am still optimistic there will be a change someday even with different cryptocurrencies popping out of the blue.

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Quote from: 19Nov16 on August 03, 2021, 05:49:29 AM

Quote from: Kiley33 on August 03, 2021, 02:34:26 AM

If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

Of course, holding bitcoin for long term to make a profit, for me bitcoin is a very good asset because it has been proven to get big profits, if transactions to send and receive money, of course using stable coins (USDT) or other payment systems are safer.

i wont say usdt is a safer alternative for btc but other cryptos maybe tho we arent talking if which currency is safe for transactions but its all about their fees .
i think stable coins like usdt has a higher fees either and they can be higher than btc so i would still go for btc but when i purchase i make sure that the item that i will buy is higher than the fee that im going to pay so that it will make a sense .

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Quote from: Kiley33 on August 03, 2021, 02:34:26 AM

If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

Of course, holding bitcoin for long term to make a profit, for me bitcoin is a very good asset because it has been proven to get big profits, if transactions to send and receive money, of course using stable coins (USDT) or other payment systems are safer.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 02, 2021, 03:12:36 PM

It's certainly not a safe-haven asset like gold or silver are, but it can be used to store value. The problem is whether the value is going to drop by 30% overnight or go to the moon. Bitcoin has a tendency to go crazy in both directions from time to time.

Bitcoin price volatility can make some people sell at low price, if the price increases, it will retrace back but not to the low price, some people make use of the opportunity as they understand about price volatility very well, allso knowing that bitcoin price still increase after several volatilities. Even if the price do not increase to $64000 (all-time-high) for now, I believe some whales and institutions and ready to make people fomo during the next halving, while people fomo normally at the time. These will still make the price to go further and reach all-time-high, provided if all-time-high is not attained until then. As deflationary Bitcoin might be, it is true to be considered as both store of value and a speculative asset, I was surprised to see the price decreased from above $40000 to $31000 within hours during the China FUD, but all-time-high is still very certain.

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Quote from: Kittygalore on July 28, 2021, 05:52:20 AM

It's a bit annoying but I still believe that it is a combination of both speculative asset and currency, because I believe that it can do the work of those two, I mean Laszlo has used bitcoin for two pizzas right so I don't think that we can't discount the fact that it can be used like a currency entirely.

Why should this be annoying to you if this is standard practice with all other Fiat currencies? Let's take the US Dollar (Currency) as an example...

When you withdraw US Dollars from a ATM, you use those dollar bills as a currency, because you give those Dollar bills as a payment option for goods and services. (The same thing apply to Bitcoin when you pay with bitcoins for the same products or services)

Now, the same Dollars can be traded for other currencies, which is Foreign Exchange (forex or FX) trading ..... and with Bitcoin, people trade for Alt coins or Fiat currencies on a Crypto currency exchange. (Commodities) Wink

There is no difference... and no reason to be annoyed. The Governments just define Bitcoin as a asset or a commodity, because they do not want competition for their reserve (local) currency. Wink

Kiley33

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If the cost is high, do you think people will spend $5 on something worth $1?
When Bitcoin transaction fees are reduced or there are no transaction fees, everyone can use Bitcoin to pay. At this time, it means that Bitcoin is a currency.
But there will also be people who have been holding Bitcoin, waiting for the price of Bitcoin to rise. I think there are more people holding Bitcoin.

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Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value? I think people will have different opinions about this.
Also bitcoin high transaction fee, is it not related to this? Because the lower the fee the more Bitcoin will fit into the currency category.

Bitcoin is both and there's nothing wrong with that.Most speculative assets are a store of value as well.
The transaction fees depend on the transaction volume.If the blockchain gets congested with many transactions,the fees will go up.We can't control this process and artificially lower the transaction fees.
Off chain solutions like Lightning Network will provide a way to keep the blockchain free from being stuck.
The governments will always want to reduce our privacy,but there are still ways to keep our wealth private.

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People use big mac prices to measure purchasing power in different countries. So is big mac food or an index?

Everyone find it individual. Someone find Bitcoin as a technology, some as a anonymous payment and some as an easy way to get rich. As Bitcoin price grows, I think that for most this is clearly a speculative asset. Even if they could use it for daily purchases, people will still prefer to hold. All these "stories of success" converted Bitcoin as a speculative asset and even if one day it turns into a currency, people wont use it, because they "heard that once a guy has bought Bitcoin for $1 and sold it for $60k."

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To my mind, nowadays Bitcoin is considered to be a speculative asset rather than a means of payment. People buy it to earn money, but not to pay for services or ghosts. Moreover, it is not allowed in the majority of countries. But, in my opinion, we will use Bitcoin to pay within time. Even now different companies (Tesla, Amazon) think about it, and countries (Solvador) accept it as the national.

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Quote from: macson on July 28, 2021, 11:28:54 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

snip

In my view, Bitcoin is a speculative asset as well as a currency, directly Bitcoin is both. you can make transactions with Bitcoin wherever you are, and you can hold your BTC in the long term until the price goes up. you are free to make your Bitcoin in the form of assets or currencies.

I think this is the truth. Bitcoin has been used as both, Investors will always do whatever seems right for them at any particular time. Since there are avenues to spend it as a currency, some will do this and even those same investors can still hold it as a speculative asset which I believe most are doing.

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Bitcoin can be used as an asset and currency at the same time. Bitcoin was first issued as a currency, but due to the high price volatility, it is more suitable as an asset storage. Investing in Bitcoin and holding it for a long time can make a profit. With the strengthening of Bitcoin consensus, more people like to invest in Bitcoin to make money.
But now some areas also allow bitcoin payment and use Bitcoin as currency. Some countries also use it as legal currency or use bitcoin to pay employees' salaries.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value?

This is a lingering question and it is hard to choose one primarily because Bitcoin functions as both. As a matter of fact, in addition, we cannot deny that even though it is seldom used it is also functioning as a currency right at this very moment, a legal tender even in a sovereign country starting September 8 this year. But people are also speculating on Bitcoin at the same time. Not only are they keeping their wealth on Bitcoin, they are also looking forward to capital gains. So I guess it is not either of the two but all of the above.

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Bitcoin is originally meant to be a permanent replacement to fiat currency, but since people found profit in investing and holding bitcoins nowadays, it worked best as a speculative asset. Still, I believe that the moment bitcoin's volatility and high processing time and fees are solved, which is very possible in the near future considering technology advances exponentially, we could see bitcoin acting more in line with its intended purpose. But as of now, I think it's all okay that it's used by millions around the world to get by amidst this pesky pandemic situation.

Quote from: zanezane on August 02, 2021, 01:15:47 PM

Can it be both because I believe that bitcoin is comprised of factors that is unique to currency and speculative asset. Plus there's nothing wrong with both because it adds some character of some sort to bitcoin being debated whether it's an asset or a currency.

Agreeing with you on this. Bitcoin is pretty much offering the best of both worlds, offering limitless transactions across the planet, and some form of profitability too to those who see it as an investment venture. We also couldn't deny the fact that even now, there are multitudes of bitcoin holders who both use it as an online currency, and as a way to earn money too.

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on August 02, 2021, 03:12:36 PM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value? I think people will have different opinions about this.
Also bitcoin high transaction fee, is it not related to this? Because the lower the fee the more Bitcoin will fit into the currency category.

I don't know much about CBDCs at all, but I'm pretty sure they're not going to be a good thing for anyone other than banks and governments.

With respect to the question above, this has been asked and discussed so many times on the forum that it probably doesn't warrant another thread. You're correct that people have all sorts of opinions as to whether bitcoin is a store of value, a currency, an instrument of speculation, or whatever--and the truth is that it's all of these things (which is why it's kind of silly to even argue about it). However, as far as the store of value function, I'm not quite sure how good bitcoin is in that respect--but only because of its notorious volatility. It's certainly not a safe-haven asset like gold or silver are, but it can be used to store value. The problem is whether the value is going to drop by 30% overnight or go to the moon. Bitcoin has a tendency to go crazy in both directions from time to time.

A long standing discussion yes indeed. The original idea behind bitcoin was to use it as a means for transactions, peer to peer, not fully anonymous but not fully named, uncontrollable and unstoppable. After a few considerations, the community did not reach an agreement so some bitcoin forks occurred, namely bitcoin cash being the most notable and oriented to a lower fee, making it similar to a currency.

As for bitcoin, there are two main reasons to consider it a store of value. Firstly, it is a fact that the amount that is traded is low in comparison with the stores. Secondly, the blocksize is limited so in case too many transactions occur, it actuates as self-regulating brake.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value? I think people will have different opinions about this.
Also bitcoin high transaction fee, is it not related to this? Because the lower the fee the more Bitcoin will fit into the currency category.

I don't know much about CBDCs at all, but I'm pretty sure they're not going to be a good thing for anyone other than banks and governments.

With respect to the question above, this has been asked and discussed so many times on the forum that it probably doesn't warrant another thread. You're correct that people have all sorts of opinions as to whether bitcoin is a store of value, a currency, an instrument of speculation, or whatever--and the truth is that it's all of these things (which is why it's kind of silly to even argue about it). However, as far as the store of value function, I'm not quite sure how good bitcoin is in that respect--but only because of its notorious volatility. It's certainly not a safe-haven asset like gold or silver are, but it can be used to store value. The problem is whether the value is going to drop by 30% overnight or go to the moon. Bitcoin has a tendency to go crazy in both directions from time to time.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

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Is Bitcoin still yet a speculative asset or a store of value? I think people will have different opinions about this.

Yes opinions will be diversed. This question has been asked in different ways since inception of bitcoin. The purpose of bitcoin is being achieved in the both questions. We need to remember that bitcoin is freedom and as that, it works in the financial system to leverage on the loopholes on fiat. Fiat is more of straight kind of legal tender which bitcoin has not totally attain and or maybe not but it will keep operating as both speculative asset and store of value.

It operates as speculatory because it is staked and traded but the difference is that it is not regulated, this is what also gives it the store of value status just like gold.

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Quote from: zanezane on August 02, 2021, 01:15:47 PM

Can it be both because I believe that bitcoin is comprised of factors that is unique to currency and speculative asset. Plus there's nothing wrong with both because it adds some character of some sort to bitcoin being debated whether it's an asset or a currency.

both are functions and benefits that we can get from bitcoin, both as a speculative investment asset and as a digital currency, but as citizens of course we must follow all regulations issued by our country regarding the use of bitcoin, and in my country bitcoin it can only be used as an investment asset and will get punished if you use bitcoin as a currency (a payment/purchase transaction tool), and that's why I personally prefer bitcoin as an investment asset because there are state regulations that I have to follow, but it's different with other people who live in el salvador today, those who live in salvador already have the freedom to use bitcoin both as an investment asset and as a currency because the el salvador government has completely legalized cryptocurrency in their country.

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Can it be both because I believe that bitcoin is comprised of factors that is unique to currency and speculative asset. Plus there's nothing wrong with both because it adds some character of some sort to bitcoin being debated whether it's an asset or a currency.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 28, 2021, 05:42:52 AM

...

because I still can't use Bitcoin for shopping then I think Bitcoin is a speculative asset...

My country's regulation of Bitcoin is that 'you can't pay for anything with btc because the only rupiah is recognized as a means of payment, bitcoin can only be traded like a trading investment asset'

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