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Topic: Bitcoin core value? - miners will switch to Bitcoin Classic (Read 5765 times)

sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
You are either unwilling or unable to stay focused. Until you are, >>>/dev/null.

As expected, you are unwilling or unable to present a logical argument.

It may appear to be wordy, since I make an effort to respond to every point my opponent makes. You, on the other hand, respond to precisely zero of the arguments your opponent makes. Then you complain that your opponent uses too many words, as if that was sufficient to refute his arguments.

In other words, you're just talking shit, as usual.

So...your opponent makes multiple points, and that justifies you addressing none of them? Right.

Case closed.

Perhaps, but certainly not in your favor.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100



You are either unwilling or unable to stay focused. Until you are, >>>/dev/null.

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
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Okay. I can also compare "black" to "white" and "night" to "day." That doesn't prove anything.

This is pretty much it right here.

This bargainbin guy is like

black is white and night is day

and then when asked to explain how he is like 

you are a frustratingly dense douche
you don't know what the fuck you're talking about
you are retarded
you have an undisciplined mind and inability to focus

The guy can't make a single point that isn't ripped to shreds and then he tries to act condescending.....LOL.....

And you round out your complete butchery of logic with an ad hominem. And not even an original one. Roll Eyes

Mashes [UPVOTE] button
sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.

How so? Explain how non-mining nodes  garlic garlands are irrelevant to security. Otherwise you have no basis to compare them to garlic garlands or padlocks strewn about the lawn--it's just a baseless opinion.

FTFY. If you can't prove to me that garlic garlands are irrelevant to home security, it's just a baseless opinion.

Why would I need to prove anything about garlic garlands? You haven't established that they are remotely relevant to this discussion.

My claim is that non-mining nodes are essential to network security. I have provided evidence which you refuse to address. You made the claim that non-mining nodes are irrelevant to security. You have presented zero evidence of that.

The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.

And what does this have to do with non-mining nodes? You haven't established that (see above). This isn't about garlic.

It's called an analogy.

It's called a baseless analogy, i.e. one you have provided no factual, logical or evidentiary basis for.

If I compare thee to a summer's day, I don't mean to suggest you have 24hrs & that there are 365 of you in a year.

Okay. I can also compare "black" to "white" and "night" to "day." That doesn't prove anything. This provides zero evidence for your argument that non-mining nodes are irrelevant to security.

Your failure to understand such basics is, partially, what led me to conclude that you're a
... frustratingly dense douche ...
Duh.

And you round out your complete butchery of logic with an ad hominem. And not even an original one. Roll Eyes

Quote
It may appear to be wordy, since I make an effort to respond to every point my opponent makes. You, on the other hand, respond to precisely zero of the arguments your opponent makes. Then you complain that your opponent uses too many words, as if that was sufficient to refute his arguments.

In other words, you're just talking shit, as usual.

The problem with attempting to converse with your likes is that (on top of your other failings) you cause the argument to bloom -- instead of limiting yourself to a single point, you create multiple branches, going off on multiple tangents.

So...your opponent makes multiple points, and that justifies you addressing none of them? Right.

This could be due to an undisciplined mind -- inability to focus, choosing instead the spray & pray, the shotgun approach, or "throwing spaghetti at the wall & seeing what sticks."

Perhaps you could begin by showing my arguments to be false, instead of ignoring every single one of them. You continue to try to attack me as a person, rather than doing so. That's patently dishonest.

A less generous interpretation is "force the debate into a stalemate by causing it to bloom & become unmanageable/"too much of a bother to continue."
If so, GG.

How is it a stalemate? You're the one veering the discussion onto irrelevant tangents about "The Father of Lies, unicorns, Easter Bunnies and garlands of garlic" in an attempt to ignore all the evidence I've provided that non-mining nodes are essential to network security. If they are in fact irrelevant to security, go ahead and address the arguments I've made instead of veering off on bizarre tangents that have nothing to do with the subject at hand:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13865510
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13874689
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13879163
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13909294
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13920309

Quote
One node is one agent in the network. Could you explain how it isn't? That doesn't mean that one user = one node.

In that case, it things like Sybil attack are bullshit -- all the nodes participating in the attack are "[valid, legitimate] agent in the network."

An "agent" is simply "the doer of an action." That implies nothing about whether they are "valid and legitimate."

How can you define "attacking nodes" as "valid and legitimate?" The premise of bitcoin is/was to use a peer-to-peer network to establish a trustless method for value transfer that addresses fraud. It was intended precisely to deter any suck attacks, suggesting that "attacking nodes" are not "legitimate" at all.

A Sybil attack is not an attack, merely Bitcoin functioning as it should.


Your link is a 404. Source?

Are you talking about this? And what is your point?

Case closed.

Perhaps, but certainly not in your favor.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
So switching "padlocks thrown about on our lawn" for "garlands of garlic on our front door" proves your case....how? I provided numerous arguments that suggest this is an absurd analogy with no basis in reality.

You don't understand what an analogy is. Start learning here.

Here's the most common definition of "analogy":

 1. You claim that the hundreds of padlocks thrown about on our lawn help secure our house.
1. You tell me that hanging garlands of garlic on our front door is essential for home security

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.

How so? Explain how non-mining nodes  garlic garlands are irrelevant to security. Otherwise you have no basis to compare them to garlic garlands or padlocks strewn about the lawn--it's just a baseless opinion.

FTFY. If you can't prove to me that garlic garlands are irrelevant to home security, it's just a baseless opinion.

The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.

And what does this have to do with non-mining nodes? You haven't established that (see above). This isn't about garlic.

It's called an analogy. If I compare thee to a summer's day, I don't mean to suggest you have 24hrs & that there are 365 of you in a year. Your failure to understand such basics is, partially, what led me to conclude that you're a
... frustratingly dense douche ...
Duh.

Quote
Since I mounted considerable evidence that nodes are essential to network security, it is incumbent upon you to explain how nodes are comparable to either of those things.

No. You typed shitloads of words, which rarely corresponds to "mount[ing] considerable evidence." This subtle distinction eludes you too, I'm sure.

It may appear to be wordy, since I make an effort to respond to every point my opponent makes. You, on the other hand, respond to precisely zero of the arguments your opponent makes. Then you complain that your opponent uses too many words, as if that was sufficient to refute his arguments.

In other words, you're just talking shit, as usual.

The problem with attempting to converse with your likes is that (on top of your other failings) you cause the argument to bloom -- instead of limiting yourself to a single point, you create multiple branches, going off on multiple tangents. This could be due to an undisciplined mind -- inability to focus, choosing instead the spray & pray, the shotgun approach, or "throwing spaghetti at the wall & seeing what sticks."
A less generous interpretation is "force the debate into a stalemate by causing it to bloom & become unmanageable/"too much of a bother to continue."
If so, GG.

...
And here you admit to gaming the very system you claim to support Angry

Gaming the system, how? You've never read the bitcoin whitepaper have you?  

Quote
Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote

It's not one-user-one-vote. My nodes are simply enforcing the consensus rules that the rest of the network is, i.e. honest nodes. How is that gaming the system?

In that case, you disagree with the majority of Core supporters, who feel that one node = one "economic agent" (whateverthefuck that means) & thus nodes become a voice of the "economic majority" (whateverthefuck that means).

One node is one agent in the network. Could you explain how it isn't? That doesn't mean that one user = one node.

In that case, it things like Sybil attack are bullshit -- all the nodes participating in the attack are "[valid, legitimate] agent[s ] in the network." A Sybil attack is not an attack, merely Bitcoin functioning as it should. Discouraging "Bitnodes['s] incentivizing full node operators "until the end of 2015 or until 10,000 nodes are running." by Core was also bullshit.
Case closed.

Quote
Sources for the latter claim?

See above.
sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
My nodes are simply enforcing the consensus rules that the rest of the network is, i.e. honest nodes. How is that gaming the system?

How do we know what consensus rules the rest of the network is using are?

The first method is to inspect transactions and blocks that have already been included in the Blockchain and try to determine the rules empirically via abduction.  

Is there another way?

It's true that we don't know about incompatible consensus rules that exist, but simply haven't been broken. For all practical purposes, those are irrelevant. As long as my nodes agree with the network in establishing the currently best blockchain, the purpose of the consensus mechanism has been fulfilled. And as long as we have a single, cohesive ledger extending to the genesis block, we know the consensus rules that are/were hard-coded into the protocol, prima facie.

For example, we know that

Quote
-Blocks may only create a certain number of bitcoins. (Currently 25 BTC per block.)
-Blocks may only be of a certain size. (Currently 1MB per block.)

If consensus is broken (i.e. the network disagrees on what constitutes the longest, valid chain), we would then need to deduce which consensus rule was violated (by either fork). But as long as consensus remains intact, that is unnecessary, since my nodes agree with the current (and in this case, only) consensus on what constitutes the longest, valid chain.

This is a case where prima facie, it is sensible to assume the consensus rules have not changed unless and until a) we have affirmative knowledge that the consensus rules have changed (i.e. software update, where we can observe the proportion of updated nodes), or b) consensus is broken. Maybe I'm missing something, but anything else seems irrelevant, since it won't affect consensus.
sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
So switching "padlocks thrown about on our lawn" for "garlands of garlic on our front door" proves your case....how? I provided numerous arguments that suggest this is an absurd analogy with no basis in reality.

You don't understand what an analogy is. Start learning here.

Here's the most common definition of "analogy":

 1. You claim that the hundreds of padlocks thrown about on our lawn help secure our house.
1. You tell me that hanging garlands of garlic on our front door is essential for home security

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.

How so? Explain how non-mining nodes are irrelevant to security. Otherwise you have no basis to compare them to garlic garlands or padlocks strewn about the lawn--it's just a baseless opinion.

The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.

And what does this have to do with non-mining nodes? You haven't established that (see above). This isn't about garlic.

Quote
Since I mounted considerable evidence that nodes are essential to network security, it is incumbent upon you to explain how nodes are comparable to either of those things.

No. You typed shitloads of words, which rarely corresponds to "mount[ing] considerable evidence." This subtle distinction eludes you too, I'm sure.

It may appear to be wordy, since I make an effort to respond to every point my opponent makes. You, on the other hand, respond to precisely zero of the arguments your opponent makes. Then you complain that your opponent uses too many words, as if that was sufficient to refute his arguments.

In other words, you're just talking shit, as usual.

...
And here you admit to gaming the very system you claim to support Angry

Gaming the system, how? You've never read the bitcoin whitepaper have you?  

Quote
Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote

It's not one-user-one-vote. My nodes are simply enforcing the consensus rules that the rest of the network is, i.e. honest nodes. How is that gaming the system?

In that case, you disagree with the majority of Core supporters, who feel that one node = one "economic agent" (whateverthefuck that means) & thus nodes become a voice of the "economic majority" (whateverthefuck that means).

One node is one agent in the network. Could you explain how it isn't? That doesn't mean that one user = one node.

Sources for the latter claim? If anything, I see Core supporters arguing against this "economic majority" idea because it suggests that actors that are completely external to the protocol should have some voice in governing it. But in my view, there is only hash-based proof-of-work (hashpower) and validation of that proof-of-work (nodes).

As far as reading the white paper, I did. Number of times non-mining-non-wallet nodes mentioned: 0 (zero).

And what about the constant mention of nodes? Satoshi may have envisioned typical users being able to mine with CPUs, but that doesn't mean that "node" is defined as some arbitrary "unit of hashpower." (Is each CPU worth 4.86 terahashes/second, maybe? More? Less? Cheesy)

What do you think "CPU" in "one-CPU-one-vote" refers to? It necessarily refers to nodes. Nothing suggests that one must be "a miner" to operate a node.

Indeed, the whitepaper suggests that validating nodes -- not "hashpower" -- are responsible for establishing the validity of blocks:

Quote
To accomplish this without a trusted party, transactions must be publicly announced, and we need a system for participants to agree on a single history of the order in which they were received. The payee needs proof that at the time of each transaction, the majority of nodes agreed it was the first received.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1027
miners will switch to what gives them more stability.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 1214
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This is the major problem with bitcoin. The debate got started years back and till now a decision has not been reached whether switch to classic or not. Certain decision were made without giving priority to the miners, Which needs to be more concerned.
full member
Activity: 141
Merit: 100
While this discussion continues, number of running Classic nodes shows steady rise - http://xtnodes.com/
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.
The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.



You didn't explain anything; you just insult.  Your analogies are weak and you have no position.

I apologize in advance to anyone reading this however I feel an ad hominem attack is warranted.  Bargainbin, your intelligence is low and you likely suffer from hygiene problems.

That is all.

Just put bargainbin on your ignore list,

He has no interest in intelligent discussion, he only wishes to argue and insult people.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.
The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.



You didn't explain anything; you just insult.  Your analogies are weak and you have no position.

I apologize in advance to anyone reading this however I feel an ad hominem attack is warranted.  Bargainbin, your intelligence is low and you likely suffer from hygiene problems.

That is all.

Dear fucking idiot: your failure to understand may be caused by
a) My failure to explain
b) You being a fucking idiot
I'm betting on the latter.
Now run along and play your vidya.
sr. member
Activity: 314
Merit: 251

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.
The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.



You didn't explain anything; you just insult.  Your analogies are weak and you have no position.

I apologize in advance to anyone reading this however I feel an ad hominem attack is warranted.  Bargainbin, your intelligence is low and you likely suffer from hygiene problems.

That is all.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
This situation is analogous to banking customers (the bitcoin userbase) depending solely on central banks (miners) to uphold the integrity of the system. It doesn't work in the real world and it won't work in bitcoin.  Non-mining users and miners have competing incentives. Miners are only concerned with profit -- historical attacks (withholding, double-spend, tx censoring) support that. The only checks on miners' incentives to attack other miners or users are 1) other miners (who might control enough computing power to prevent computing power based attacks) and 2) non-mining nodes (who might control enough nodes to prevent Sybil attacks). Past that, miners are presumed not to be honest (they have clear incentives to be dishonest), and will steal everything they can. Non-mining nodes are therefore essential to keeping miners honest, by making it too expensive or difficult to mount certain attacks against the userbase...

Sure, miners' interests != hodlers interests (though this rabbit hole goes too deep for comfort -- all nodes (wallets) mined in satoshi's model. Contrary to Pierre's claims, the white paper makes no mention of non-mining, non-wallet nodes.

My point is not that miners' interests inevitably coincide with those of the hodlers, but that non-mining nodes (which are not being used as a wallet) add nothing to Bitcoin security. Your wallet (as in the only wallet that's truly trustless, one running a full node) checks for *you* that the miners are following your ruleset.

Mostly agree with the caveat that NMN add security for those not running nodes (SPV)
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
This situation is analogous to banking customers (the bitcoin userbase) depending solely on central banks (miners) to uphold the integrity of the system. It doesn't work in the real world and it won't work in bitcoin.  Non-mining users and miners have competing incentives. Miners are only concerned with profit -- historical attacks (withholding, double-spend, tx censoring) support that. The only checks on miners' incentives to attack other miners or users are 1) other miners (who might control enough computing power to prevent computing power based attacks) and 2) non-mining nodes (who might control enough nodes to prevent Sybil attacks). Past that, miners are presumed not to be honest (they have clear incentives to be dishonest), and will steal everything they can. Non-mining nodes are therefore essential to keeping miners honest, by making it too expensive or difficult to mount certain attacks against the userbase...

Sure, miners' interests != hodlers interests (though this rabbit hole goes too deep for comfort -- all nodes (wallets) mined in satoshi's model. Contrary to Pierre's claims, the white paper makes no mention of non-mining, non-wallet nodes.

My point is not that miners' interests inevitably coincide with those of the hodlers, but that non-mining nodes (which are not being used as a wallet) add nothing to Bitcoin security. Your wallet (as in the only wallet that's truly trustless, one running a full node) checks for *you* that the miners are following your ruleset.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
This situation is analogous to banking customers (the bitcoin userbase) depending solely on central banks (miners) to uphold the integrity of the system. It doesn't work in the real world and it won't work in bitcoin.  Non-mining users and miners have competing incentives. Miners are only concerned with profit -- historical attacks (withholding, double-spend, tx censoring) support that. The only checks on miners' incentives to attack other miners or users are 1) other miners (who might control enough computing power to prevent computing power based attacks) and 2) non-mining nodes (who might control enough nodes to prevent Sybil attacks). Past that, miners are presumed not to be honest (they have clear incentives to be dishonest), and will steal everything they can. Non-mining nodes are therefore essential to keeping miners honest, by making it too expensive or difficult to mount certain attacks against the userbase...
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
So switching "padlocks thrown about on our lawn" for "garlands of garlic on our front door" proves your case....how? I provided numerous arguments that suggest this is an absurd analogy with no basis in reality.

You don't understand what an analogy is. Start learning here.

Here's the most common definition of "analogy":

 1. You claim that the hundreds of padlocks thrown about on our lawn help secure our house.
1. You tell me that hanging garlands of garlic on our front door is essential for home security

Yes i did. For those failing to see parallels apparent to a household cat, I'll explain:

Garlic garlands, padlocks strewn about the lawn, and non-mining nodes are analogous, that is to say have a thing in common: They're all FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO SECURITY.
The similarities don't end here.
If one is challenged by some frustratingly dense douche to prove garlic's lack of efficacy in keeping out The Father of Lies, one is unable to do so, as one would be unable to prove nonexistence of unicorns and Easter Bunnies. Because proving the negative is notoriously difficult, if not outright impossible.
Go figure.

...
And here you admit to gaming the very system you claim to support Angry
...
I'm running nodes to keep the network decentralized.
...

Oy vey, a core sybil attack! Halp!

Gaming the system, how? You've never read the bitcoin whitepaper have you?  

Quote
Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote

It's not one-user-one-vote. My nodes are simply enforcing the consensus rules that the rest of the network is, i.e. honest nodes. How is that gaming the system?

In that case, you disagree with the majority of Core supporters, who feel that one node = one "economic agent" (whateverthefuck that means) & thus nodes become a voice of the "economic majority" (whateverthefuck that means).

As far as reading the white paper, I did. Number of times non-mining-non-wallet nodes mentioned: 0 (zero).
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
A second method is to assume that the rest of the network is using code that is the same (or similar) to the code that we use for our node, and determine the consensus rules from that code via deduction.  

The first method would have failed during the first halving while the second method would have succeeded.  There was no blockchain evidence that the coinbase reward would suddenly be reduced from 50 BTC to 25 BTC; however, the halving rule was encoded into Satoshi's original Bitcoin code.  

Should blocks greater than 1MB soon be included into the blockchain, the second method would have failed while the first method would have succeeded.  There is little blockchain evidence of a 1 MB limit; however, code going back to the late summer of 2010 contained a rule that specified that blocks shall be no greater than 1 MB.  

Neither method is perfect: we can't be sure that Bitcoin will empirically behave the same in the future as it did in the past, and we also can't know for certain what code is being run by the "rest of the network."  It's a matter of epistemology.  
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
My nodes are simply enforcing the consensus rules that the rest of the network is, i.e. honest nodes. How is that gaming the system?

How do we know what consensus rules the rest of the network is using are?  

The first method is to inspect transactions and blocks that have already been included in the Blockchain and try to determine the rules empirically via abduction.  

Is there another way?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
^You're good at this. Grin
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