Topic: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California - page 10. (Read 48339 times)
June 24, 2013, 04:29:18 PM
Is the foundation going to make any announcement about this matter to its members?
June 24, 2013, 04:28:24 PM
If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.
I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?
Really? Does TBF pay the lead developers salary? Does the lead developer work on a software system that can transfer funds for cash out at an exchange? Did TBF spend any funds advertising the recent California conference? Does the state of California consider that to be enough for violation of the law? I don't know enough of the inside story to answer all these questions but if you do please enlighten us.
June 24, 2013, 04:24:03 PM
Hey Rassah, I agree that the foundation seems an unlikely target for this action. Perhaps this is a "shot across the bow" of some sorts?
June 24, 2013, 04:16:10 PM
If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.
I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?
June 24, 2013, 04:09:48 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.
But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place
If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.
June 24, 2013, 04:09:10 PM
Have any Cali businesses received this letter? It is thought to have been sent as part of a flotilla of letters, but I have found no others. If it is just the foundation that received this, that is a little weird and provocative.
Here is the letter:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/149335233/CA-State-Cease-and-Desist-May-30
P.S. For those who think we should just disengage from the regulatory process, this is what you can expect more of. Laws written by people who know nothing about bitcoin for people like you who use bitcoin. You can whine about this all you want at the forums, but if instead you wrote your political representatives, you might actually make a difference.
Here is the letter:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/149335233/CA-State-Cease-and-Desist-May-30
P.S. For those who think we should just disengage from the regulatory process, this is what you can expect more of. Laws written by people who know nothing about bitcoin for people like you who use bitcoin. You can whine about this all you want at the forums, but if instead you wrote your political representatives, you might actually make a difference.
June 24, 2013, 04:03:29 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.
But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place
June 24, 2013, 03:55:31 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.
Exactly, people do not seem to realize it costs governments nothing to sue you. It actually helps them justify their jobs as being "so busy" and just costs YOU money to defend.
Most people that have dealt with the government do understand that, it's Rassah that seems to not understand. lol
June 24, 2013, 03:52:30 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.
Exactly, people do not seem to realize it costs governments nothing to sue you. It actually helps them justify their jobs as being "so busy" and just costs YOU money to defend.
June 24, 2013, 03:47:12 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.
June 24, 2013, 03:41:47 PM
It just amazes me how many stupid letters from states every year I have to answer (and some have to fight) just to run a business in the US. Last year, we spent 80k on legal fees answering stupid inquiries that then send "judgement" letters for taxes owed to you. Most guilty states: California, Washington, New Jersey, New York and surprisingly, Texas.
June 24, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
IANAL, but...
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling a job has been well done. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply
Done!
and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling a job has been well done. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.
Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
June 24, 2013, 02:45:27 PM
Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?
Very good question. Especially in relation to the word "advertise".
My thinking exactly. California is a bureaucratic nightmare but they usually have something they can sink their teeth into before they start sending action letters. I ran a business in California for 20 years. I've received my share of letters from the state and none of them were completely baseless accusations. They do their research first. Funny that he chose not to answer that question. A little close to home maybe?
My guess is that he is just busy.
Anyways that Code 2030 is quite worrying. Generally speaking, I fear anything that forbids advertising something, since it can usually be twisted to condemn a broad range of behaviours and limit free speech.
June 24, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?
Very good question. Especially in relation to the word "advertise".
My thinking exactly. California is a bureaucratic nightmare but they usually have something they can sink their teeth into before they start sending action letters. I ran a business in California for 20 years. I've received my share of letters from the state and none of them were completely baseless accusations. They do their research first. Funny that he chose not to answer that question. A little close to home maybe?
June 24, 2013, 10:38:48 AM
At this point in time, trying to improve the situation in USA and so many other places is much worse than doing nothing about it.
How so?
Rulers are counting with people taking action of some sort excluding just moving elsewhere. What happens if people move somewhere else or just
do nothing, literary, e.g. civil disobedience?
All you did was answer my question with a (rhetorical) question.
June 24, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
At this point in time, trying to improve the situation in USA and so many other places is much worse than doing nothing about it.
How so?
June 24, 2013, 10:22:20 AM
Move out of USA, finaly? I mean, how bad situation must become for you USA Bitcoiners to do it?
Personally, I would rather try to improve the situation than retreat from it.
June 24, 2013, 10:20:41 AM
A lot of you guys on here are pretty naive.
TBF isn't under any sort of attack - they ARE the establishment. This is all just theater to establish some "street cred" for them.
TBF isn't under any sort of attack - they ARE the establishment. This is all just theater to establish some "street cred" for them.
June 24, 2013, 09:46:26 AM
No, he's too busy working in secret, off the bitcoin-dev mailing list on some sideband "payment protocol" to bootstrap the de-anonymization of bitcoin via the X.509 SSL infrastructure.
- This is not secret.
- It will not de-anonymize Bitcoin.
- Can you provide a better way to protect against address replacement attacks?
I recognize there are critics that can be made. I, for one, never really liked the idea of a "Bitcoin Foundation". But what you just wrote is not pertinent.
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