bitcoin from illegal activities - page 5.

Rubberduckie

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on January 05, 2016, 10:57:22 AM

While some people have tried to use the word "tainted" to describe transactions that have occurred in relation to various activities that any individual might consider illegal or immoral, since bitcoin isn't under the control of any specific legal jurisdiction it is nearly impossible to determine which (if any) bitcoins actually are or are not "tainted".

Bitcoins are a fungible commodity and as such any 1 bitcoin or portion of a bitcoin is functionally equivalent to any other. People who are concerned that their transactions might be tracked have been known to use "mixers" or "shared send transactions" to make it more difficult to track where the bitcoins "came from" or where they "went to". It is difficult to know if any particular service is actually doing a good job of hiding activity, and entirely possible that some services are being run by government agencies so that they can secretly maintain a database of the source and destination of each "mixed" quantity.

see this is what I always thought.

Sometimes I see posts that differ and act like "clean coins" will be worth so much more
but who really cares?

owm123

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on January 06, 2016, 06:21:51 PM

Coins are never tainted, but some people are.

So why would blockchain info provide a coin taint measure, e.g.,
https://blockchain.info/taint/1GiL2nCUAogLpa6ALg3x59f61aNv363m8i?reversed=true

smoothie

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on January 06, 2016, 06:21:51 PM

Coins are never tainted, but some people are.

Statements like these sound religious in the crypto world.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Coins are never tainted, but some people are.

smoothie

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Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 03:53:51 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 06, 2016, 09:38:54 AM

don't be a pessimist.

I say all Bitcoins are fungible in practice until proven otherwise.

It is already proven otherwise. People get hassled for using some Bitcoins and not others with, for example, Coinbase, and apparently Bitpay merchants too. That makes them non-fungible (meaning interchangeable) to some degree at a minimum.

There are also multiple well-funded startups developing and selling blockchain analysis and risk scoring for compliance purposes. Presumably they have, or plan to have, customers using those services. The very existence of these services (assuming some usage of them) means the coins are not fungible because they will have different scores.

Long term these businesses may all fail and no one may care about such things, but that is not the case today.

Sounds like Bitcoin could have removed the need for those services if it had incorporated cryptonote tech at the protocol level.

One more reason why it will never get implemented into Bitcoin because of the pushback of these businesses that is their bread and butter.

smoothie

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on January 06, 2016, 11:34:01 AM

The whole concept of tainted coins is just asinine to me, and other users have correctly pointed out that we have the same phenomenon with cash--and it bothers us not in the least that the fiat in our pocket has most likely been used to buy drugs or has been stuffed down a stripper's thong. The same standard should apply for bitcoin. As for me, I don't know or care where my particular coins came from.

And I respect your opinion and wish it were that way too but... It doesn't matter what you think as the possibility of others choosing to see certain coins as tainted is out of your control as well as out my control.

This is why Bitcoin should have built in technology similar to monero, but I highly doubt this will ever happen.

owm123

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 06, 2016, 09:38:54 AM

don't be a pessimist.

I say all Bitcoins are fungible in practice until proven otherwise.

Maybe you could say it to bitcoin core devs, so that they stop worrying about fungibility of bitcon:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568

or to Adam Back so that he can change his lectures and interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAdI3Gzodo
https://www.weusecoins.com/adam-back-confidential-transactions/

or to Andreas Antonopoulos so that he stops spreading fear about possible problems related to fungability in bitcoin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak1iojpiHpM&feature=youtu.be&t=33m6s

smooth

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on January 06, 2016, 09:38:54 AM

don't be a pessimist.

I say all Bitcoins are fungible in practice until proven otherwise.

It is already proven otherwise. People get hassled for using some Bitcoins and not others with, for example, Coinbase, and apparently Bitpay merchants too. That makes them non-fungible (meaning interchangeable) to some degree at a minimum.

There are also multiple well-funded startups developing and selling blockchain analysis and risk scoring for compliance purposes. Presumably they have, or plan to have, customers using those services. The very existence of these services (assuming some usage of them) means the coins are not fungible because they will have different scores.

Long term these businesses may all fail and no one may care about such things, but that is not the case today.

smooth

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Quote from: Spoetnik on January 06, 2016, 12:07:46 PM

How do you hide the Ransomware authors BTC they make ? (325 million a year estimated)
Where do you think it's spent ?

Bear in mind that while these coins are technically used for illegal activity, most ransomware victims have nothing to do with each other, nor engage in repeated transactions (somewhat different from say DNM drug buyers and sellers, gamblers, etc.) which makes the coins themselves are relatively clean from the perspective of blockchain analysis. I would not be surprised if those coins were used to fund the "clean coins" that come out of mixers run by the same ransomware operators. But that is just a guess.

Bitcoinpro

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Quote from: indbitcoin on January 05, 2016, 10:43:17 AM

I'm curious now what they called the bitcoin from illegal activities. I know it but just forgot the term they called it. Just like the bitcoin from alphabay and other sites from tor. I wanna know how they make it become clean bitcoin except using mixers. Maybe there is a wallet now that will make it a fresh bitcoin without the stain from illegal activities. Or it still the mixers they used?

Ur English is pathetic but where is Frankie and Bruce Fenton?

Stop making ur ghey threads Bruce n Frankie and Co u LOST!!!!!!

And this is not a fleeting victory this is the Victory!!!!!!!

OrangeII

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in fact many people and investors who use bitcoin not because the only transactions quick and easy in use, but because it is very difficult to keep track of users bitcoin address wallet he used, according to the experience I have gained bitcoin labeled illegal because of it, it can make transactions black becomes undetectable

Spoetnik

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How do you hide the Ransomware authors BTC they make ? (325 million a year estimated)
Where do you think it's spent ?

aso118

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★Nitrogensports.eu★

All this talk about tainted coins is just so that the mixing services can make some money.

The Sceptical Chymist

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The whole concept of tainted coins is just asinine to me, and other users have correctly pointed out that we have the same phenomenon with cash--and it bothers us not in the least that the fiat in our pocket has most likely been used to buy drugs or has been stuffed down a stripper's thong. The same standard should apply for bitcoin. As for me, I don't know or care where my particular coins came from.

n2004al

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Quote from: indbitcoin on January 05, 2016, 10:43:17 AM

I'm curious now what they called the bitcoin from illegal activities. I know it but just forgot the term they called it. Just like the bitcoin from alphabay and other sites from tor. I wanna know how they make it become clean bitcoin except using mixers. Maybe there is a wallet now that will make it a fresh bitcoin without the stain from illegal activities. Or it still the mixers they used?

I am not an expert but maybe mixers like the service I am doing publicity may clean the tainted coins. They pretend to clean all the possible tracks of a send of the coins from them and after the use of their service. They explain everything in their site. As I told in the beginning I am not an expert to be able to judge if they are able to do such things and even if are really able to clean everything has to do with the previous activity of every coin. So my post can be made only as am info post. who think to be able to do this is free to try clicking on my signature.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

don't be a pessimist.

I say all Bitcoins are fungible in practice until proven otherwise.

smooth

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Quote from: ObscureBean on January 06, 2016, 05:06:39 AM

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 04:50:54 AM

Quote from: ObscureBean on January 06, 2016, 04:45:46 AM

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 03:26:08 AM

Because there is a giant database in the sky that records, forever, exactly where those Bitcoin came from and where they go. There is no such database for money you physically handle.

Ok fine but that still doesn't explain why people should care where the Bitcoin has been. I mean you've got a clear conscience, you haven't done anything illegal so what's the problem?

I 100% don't care what you did with your Bitcoin.

Other people care. I may or may not care that they care. For example, if I hypothetically have a Coinbase account and hypothetically find it useful and don't want it to get closed, nor have reports filed with the government over my "suspicious activity" then I hypothetically might try to avoid Bitcoin that have been involved with so-called "bad" activities (or sending Bitcoin to people likely to do so).

Quote

I'm even reading comments where people are suggesting that a 'used' Bitcoin could be viewed as being worth less than a freshly mined one. Like what?? Huh

It absolutely is worth less, if people are willing to pay to mix it or pay more to exchange for "clean" coins, or pay a premium to buy miners with it that have a virtually guaranteed negative ROI. It doesn't even matter what their reason is. As long as that's the market, then that's the market.

I get what you're saying, I just think it would be pretty shitty/unfortunate if Bitcoin heads down that path. I understand that people are free to decide that this Bitcoin is worth more to them than the identical one next to it but somehow it just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me.

I agree with the sentiment. The issue is that this Bitcoin is not in a literal sense identical to the one next to it (usually). Each has a unique history. We can all agree to a social convention where we ignore that history and treat all Bitcoins alike. That would be great, but the way things seem to be going right now (companies selling chain analysis services, blockchain-based risk scoring, Coinbase and Bitpay taking actions based on blockchain analysis, etc.), it seems pretty darn unlikely. As long as there are some people who don't agree to this convention, the rest of us have to deal with the consequences of it. Unless we improve the technology, of course.

ObscureBean

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Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 04:50:54 AM

Quote from: ObscureBean on January 06, 2016, 04:45:46 AM

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 03:26:08 AM

Because there is a giant database in the sky that records, forever, exactly where those Bitcoin came from and where they go. There is no such database for money you physically handle.

Ok fine but that still doesn't explain why people should care where the Bitcoin has been. I mean you've got a clear conscience, you haven't done anything illegal so what's the problem?

I 100% don't care what you did with your Bitcoin.

Other people care. I may or may not care that they care. For example, if I hypothetically have a Coinbase account and hypothetically find it useful and don't want it to get closed, nor have reports filed with the government over my "suspicious activity" then I hypothetically might try to avoid Bitcoin that have been involved with so-called "bad" activities (or sending Bitcoin to people likely to do so).

Quote

I'm even reading comments where people are suggesting that a 'used' Bitcoin could be viewed as being worth less than a freshly mined one. Like what?? Huh

It absolutely is worth less, if people are willing to pay to mix it or pay more to exchange for "clean" coins, or pay a premium to buy miners with it that have a virtually guaranteed negative ROI. It doesn't even matter what their reason is. As long as that's the market, then that's the market.

I get what you're saying, I just think it would be pretty shitty/unfortunate if Bitcoin heads down that path. I understand that people are free to decide that this Bitcoin is worth more to them than the identical one next to it but somehow it just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me.

khalized

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"Pecunia non olet"
As Latin said, Money don't Smell!

after a mixing all money are "good". the same with fiat cash, we can give money/accept money, from the baddiest business, but it's not our fault, a lot of cash is marked with blood.

smooth

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Quote from: ObscureBean on January 06, 2016, 04:45:46 AM

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 03:26:08 AM

Because there is a giant database in the sky that records, forever, exactly where those Bitcoin came from and where they go. There is no such database for money you physically handle.

Ok fine but that still doesn't explain why people should care where the Bitcoin has been. I mean you've got a clear conscience, you haven't done anything illegal so what's the problem?

I 100% don't care what you did with your Bitcoin.

Other people care. I may or may not care that they care. For example, if I hypothetically have a Coinbase account and hypothetically find it useful and don't want it to get closed, nor have reports filed with the government over my "suspicious activity" then I hypothetically might try to avoid Bitcoin that have been involved with so-called "bad" activities (or sending Bitcoin to people likely to do so).

Quote

I'm even reading comments where people are suggesting that a 'used' Bitcoin could be viewed as being worth less than a freshly mined one. Like what?? Huh

It absolutely is worth less, if people are willing to pay to mix it or pay more to exchange for "clean" coins, or pay a premium to buy miners with it that have a virtually guaranteed negative ROI. It doesn't even matter what their reason is. As long as that's the market, then that's the market.

Topic: bitcoin from illegal activities - page 5. (Read 5690 times)