Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? - page 11.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Quote from: evoorhees on September 05, 2011, 01:59:57 AM

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

You are a genius

Guys, if we manage to create a religion that has bitcoin as a sacred thing, then every problem is solved.

And creating religions is possible, even sci-fi authors created some of great success!

tiberiandusk

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The North Remembers

Quote from: evoorhees on September 05, 2011, 01:59:57 AM

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

You can't make bitcoin illegal. That would violate my rights as a Coinstafarian.

Uhlbelk

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Quote from: evoorhees on September 05, 2011, 01:59:57 AM

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

Aye, I'll tip a glass to that notion!

evoorhees

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Democracy is the original 51% attack

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

Uhlbelk

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Quote from: Big Time Coin on September 05, 2011, 12:51:42 AM

Over the years, it seems that legal questions about banking regulations are going to be center stage of the international legal drama that will inevitably unfold vis-a-vis bitcoin. It doesn't really matter which country the exchange operates in, how many exchanges there are, or who is number one, so long as there are some functional exchanges somewhere.

IMHO the big decisions will all be made by the U.N.
We all know who controls the U.N.
And we all know who the U.N. controls

Big Time Coin

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Thinking more about whether Tux is the most qualified frenchman to be the plaintiff in this suit. And why he may be qualified to represent the bitcoin community well, (big) IF he doesn't screw it up.

1) Has more money invested in bitcoin than any other frenchman.
2) Is trusted (via his company mtgox) with more other people's money in dollars and bitcoins than any other user of this forum.
3) Has communicated with us in this thread about the ongoing litigation.

It makes sense that the part-owner of the biggest fiat to bitcoin exchange is going to have to deal with the first legal problems that crop up, since that is where the proverbial rubber meets the road. It's worrisome to think about what happens to the proverbial rubber.

Over the years, it seems that legal questions about banking regulations are going to be center stage of the international legal drama that will inevitably unfold vis-a-vis bitcoin. It doesn't really matter which country the exchange operates in, how many exchanges there are, or who is number one, so long as there are some functional exchanges somewhere.

Anduril

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Quote from: ovidiusoft on September 04, 2011, 12:23:29 PM

The point of my comment was that I don't believe the issue to be as bad as MagicalTux implied. There are solutions to open an exchange other than become a bank. There are also other countries other than France in the SEPA zone. Even Romania, why not?

It really depends what the exchange is doing. The nature of the BTC exchanges is to received deposits and manage funds. The exchange houses you are thinking of do not do the same thing, it is just a walk in and out exchange. Taking deposits is regulated, not as a bank, but as a financial institution (same applies to all sorts of bodies that handle financial transactions).

Uhlbelk

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Quote from: skilo on September 04, 2011, 11:59:54 AM

I think if bitcoin is to survive its value needs to be dictated by something other than fiat currency.

Why cant we base its value on the supply of orange juice? or maybe tuna fish?

Anything to keep the gooberment out of it.

I have noticed here in the US, communities that use the Time Dollars system are generally left alone.

MajorMiner

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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Good Luck!

LightRider

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

The only relevant laws are the those of the physical universe.

freequant

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Quote from: MagicalTux on September 04, 2011, 08:46:57 AM

We challenged this decision in court, to which the bank tried to defend itself by saying "Bitcoin is an electronic money, Macaraja is not a bank, therefore it's illegal for Macaraja to be handling this". The court replied that it was not up to the bank to decide this, and ordered the bank to re-open the account.

The bank announced us they would close the account again, and did an appeal. They lost their appeal but closed the account anyway.

We have then brought them once again in front of a court, which this time again decided against the bank.

Court decision (in French): http://demo.ovh.com/en/ec220dc8ec6778a9455fa7c77c991224/

Dragging a bank to court over a Bitcoin related case, and winning twice in a row...
Magical Tux, you and MtGox just went way up in my esteem.
I am getting tired to see people whining about all sorts of things, but not taking any real actions when they get scammed or abused.
Bitcoin needs more companies and people like you, ready to fight with the establishment to defend your business.

phillipsjk

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Let the chips fall where they may.

Quote from: ampirebus on September 04, 2011, 08:01:48 PM

Lastly, im left scratching my head here as to why MagicalTux is posting information on a pending legal matter on the internet. To my knowledge if you have any pending legal matters, you are not supposed to disclose information (ESPECIALLY NOT PUBLICLY!) And I would advise that because this case is so important to the future of bitcoin, its regulations and legality in general,

and that tux and mtgox stop posting information about whats going on in court. most notably his legal defense tactics...

You are allowed to say just about anything you want about a matter before the court (unless you are a politician where that may be construed as influencing the court's decision). It is just generally not a good idea because anything you say in public can and will be used against you in court. If you are saying one thing, but your lawyers are agruing another, it may hurt your case.

INNAL, don't pretend to be one on TV.

PS: I brought up Canadian law because that is the only law I started reading from the perspective of a potential bitcoin user.

wolftaur

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Quote from: Vladimir on September 04, 2011, 11:06:00 PM

Could it be that French banks have decided that ignoring and laughing stages are over and it is time to move on to fighting Bitcoin?

Probably. :/

Vladimir

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-

Quote from: Christian Pezza on September 04, 2011, 10:38:06 PM

... WTF they care about they will make more money in any ways, because this is what about for them!

Could it be that French banks have decided that ignoring and laughing stages are over and it is time to move on to fighting Bitcoin?

Christian Pezza

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Quote from: Big Time Coin on September 04, 2011, 10:32:35 PM

You know what Tux, you got me convinced that you are qualified to litigate this issue in France. It would have been easy to ignore my concerns, especially when I came on strong and direct like I did. But now that you have explained the situation a little more clearly it seems like you have it well in hand.

I would also recommend you get some research done for you about any French banks (preferably yours) holding accounts for businesses transacting in virtual goods like WoW Gold, Second Life stuff, Time codes for MMORPG games, micro transactions.

Vivendi Universal is french, they own blizzard, blizzard runs WoW, that's billions of dollars in virtual goods. One of which is a virtual currency. Dofus comes to mind as well, that is distinctly french. Anyway, if the bank holds accounts for these people, they should have to hold accounts for you as well, non?

this is a awesome tip, plus WTF they care about they will make more money in any ways, because this is what about for them!

fcmatt

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Quote from: Christian Pezza on September 04, 2011, 10:24:45 PM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 04, 2011, 09:57:32 PM

Why not just avoid France all together?

Because it's important to get things settle soon or later, if bank in France will "win" become a fact other banks in other EU states can do the same. We will stop the process of integration. BTC will succeed at the time any currency will be in Exchange. Bank it's a easy way to go. If you like to cut them off just think a global solution because this is what is about. At this point only a Western union will be the only way to integrate with BTC where is not very practical and trust worth it.

Like another poster mentioned though, was choosing France as the first country to have this type of suit a wise choice
versus another country in th EU which might have been an easier place to bring a precedent?

Perhaps just skipping that bank/country and continuing business as it was might have been a better choice? As in let people
in France send money to some other country's bank if that is why they choose to bring a suit against a French bank. It just
seems like this was not needed at this point in time and may have been premature. Sure mtgox is not making as much money...
but this sounds like it has a chance to really screw them over if it back fires... and the community.

Big Time Coin

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You know what Tux, you got me convinced that you are qualified to litigate this issue in France. It would have been easy to ignore my concerns, especially when I came on strong and direct like I did. But now that you have explained the situation a little more clearly it seems like you have it well in hand.

I would also recommend you get some research done for you about any French banks (preferably yours) holding accounts for businesses transacting in virtual goods like WoW Gold, Second Life stuff, Time codes for MMORPG games, micro transactions.

Vivendi Universal is french, they own blizzard, blizzard runs WoW, that's billions of dollars in virtual goods. One of which is a virtual currency. Dofus comes to mind as well, that is distinctly french. Anyway, if the bank holds accounts for these people, they should have to hold accounts for you as well, non?

Christian Pezza

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Quote from: fcmatt on September 04, 2011, 09:57:32 PM

Why not just avoid France all together?

Because it's important to get things settle soon or later, if bank in France will "win" become a fact other banks in other EU states can do the same. We will stop the process of integration. BTC will succeed at the time any currency will be in Exchange. Bank it's a easy way to go. If you like to cut them off just think a global solution because this is what is about. At this point only a Western union will be the only way to integrate with BTC where is not very practical and trust worth it.

fcmatt

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Is having an account in France so citizens of that country can use mtgox?
Why not just avoid France all together?

Christian Pezza

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Quote from: Big Time Coin on September 04, 2011, 07:58:40 PM

For information we haven't spent one cent so far on this (the bank has been required to pay us however, each time they lost). Unlike USA, in France the one who wins a court case is the one who is following the law, not the one with more money.

this is one of the things I missing to not leave in EU any more!!! GOOD GOD When will apply to US?!

Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? - page 11. (Read 63027 times)