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Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? - page 7. (Read 63018 times)

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1009
firstbits:1MinerQ
To me, it's a bit like playing tea with the stuffed animals. I can claim to pour some tea into your cup, and you can accept that I've done that, but it's all just imaginary.
I don't think this is much different than most monetary transactions today. While some people still pass about physical pieces of paper, probably the majority of monetary exchanges now are done as simply twiddling some bits in a computer somewhere. Credit card, debit card, bank balances, transfers etc. All are accepted because the rules for twiddling the bits is established and people trust the twiddling happens according to the rules.

I don't see a difference here: the rules encompass a distributed network where the veracity of the twiddling is verified by key signatures and the statistical math that makes a false twiddle (split of block chain) very unlikely. There is still a regime of credit/debit balancing going on.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1009
firstbits:1MinerQ
that is last news but in french of course

Audience du 13 septembre 2011 à 14h00.

Après discussion, aucun juge rapporteur ne sera désigné.

L'affaire sera jugée directement en audience publique collégiale (3 juges) le 18 octobre 2011 à 10h00 au Tribunal de Commerce de Créteil (immeuble Pascal accessible par le parking du centre commercial "créteil soleil").

La décision interviendra plus tard, environ 4 semaines habituellement (la rédaction du l'acte de justice prend du temps).

Translated on Google:

After discussion, no judge rapporteur will be appointed.

The case will be heard directly in open court judges (three judges) October 18, 2011 at 10:00 am at the Tribunal de Commerce de Créteil (Pascal building accessible from the shopping mall parking lot "Créteil Soleil").

The decision will come later, usually about four weeks (the drafting of the act of justice takes time).
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 251
FirstBits: 168Bc
I'd argue that bitcoins ARE something, and can have legal standing.

I won't argue strongly against you, but your analogy is not entire parallel. The key pairs are not the bitcoins. The transactions are not the bitcoins. Bitcoins are an idea by consensus. What we are signing is "I send 50 bitcoins". I can say "I send you a postcard" but those are only words. The postcard might exist. The bitcoins don't. On the other hand, law seems to accept "intellectual property" as a thing with defensible and transferable ownership. I happen to disagree.

To me, it's a bit like playing tea with the stuffed animals. I can claim to pour some tea into your cup, and you can accept that I've done that, but it's all just imaginary.

EDIT: "legally binding contract" - ah yeah, OK. I hear what you are saying. But I don't think the bitcoins are the contract. The contract is "I promise to perform a series of actions that will result in a network agreeing to verify that I've performed those actions, in exchange for your pogs". If you deliver the pogs and I fail to perform the actions, then I'm acting fraudulently. I still hold that bitcoins don't exist any more than a blown kiss, whether signed or not.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
I'd argue that bitcoins ARE something, and can have legal standing.

My analogy is that digital certificates, and their public/private keypairs are something, and can be used for legally binding electronic signatures in various jurisdictions.  Therefore if an electronic document signed with a private key can be a legally binding contract, then a bitcoin value and block, signed with a private key, can just as easily be a legal currency and form of monetary exchange.

Thoughts?
hero member
Activity: 888
Merit: 571
Payer sa baguette en BTC, c'est possible
that is last news but in french of course

Audience du 13 septembre 2011 à 14h00.

Après discussion, aucun juge rapporteur ne sera désigné.

L'affaire sera jugée directement en audience publique collégiale (3 juges) le 18 octobre 2011 à 10h00 au Tribunal de Commerce de Créteil (immeuble Pascal accessible par le parking du centre commercial "créteil soleil").

La décision interviendra plus tard, environ 4 semaines habituellement (la rédaction du l'acte de justice prend du temps).
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
I don't think you're the gambling type, but, well: place your bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=89 ("French court will rule Bitcoin as a virtual currency", 0.1 BTC agree, 25.80 BTC disagree. Pretty good odds should they decide it's a currency.

Hum...  Funny thing is that this makes me realize an usefull side effect of gambling websites.   It gives an incentive to publish and verify information.  A bit as if gambling markets can be an alternative to journalism.

For example,  I've bookmarked this betsofbico.in page, not because I want to bet on this event, but just because I want to know its outcome asap.

Interesting thought. Also: you can enter your own statements. Of course you should provide a description of how the decision can be checked, but the checking is done by site ops, I guess.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
September 13 is when the trial starts. The decision should take a few weeks.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Well September 13 is here and no news ?
hero member
Activity: 1138
Merit: 523
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
I don't think you're the gambling type, but, well: place your bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=89 ("French court will rule Bitcoin as a virtual currency", 0.1 BTC agree, 25.80 BTC disagree. Pretty good odds should they decide it's a currency.

Hum...  Funny thing is that this makes me realize an usefull side effect of gambling websites.   It gives an incentive to publish and verify information.  A bit as if gambling markets can be an alternative to journalism.

For example,  I've bookmarked this betsofbico.in page, not because I want to bet on this event, but just because I want to know its outcome asap.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
can you say what decision is taken the 13 september please thanks

+1
hero member
Activity: 888
Merit: 571
Payer sa baguette en BTC, c'est possible
can you say what decision is taken the 13 september please thanks
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
following.

These are the types of instances we have all been waiting for. It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox walks away from France; it'll happen somewhere else. Get the experience while you can I say.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 251
FirstBits: 168Bc
So since jewelry is not money, does that mean that robbing a jewelry store means stealing nothing at all?

I believe it was a breach of contract. Each transaction was signed by the sender with the unsigned understanding that those transactions would be signed and reversed upon request. But I think Hightax's point is that bitcoins literally (even digitally) are nothing. I don't think we have adequate physical metaphors for them. It'll be interesting how this case defines the community verified signature of an assertion.

Alice sends an IOU to Bob, verified by the peanut gallery
Bob gets the IOU stolen by Eve, also verified by the peanut gallery
Alice requests IOU back from Bob
But Bob can't get that transaction verified by the peanut gallery.
I'd say the peanut gallery is complicit in Eve's crime and conspire against Alice (or Bob).

(or some other absurd interpretations)
legendary
Activity: 1072
Merit: 1181
So since bitcoin is not money, does that mean that Tom Williams stole nothing at all?

So since jewelry is not money, does that mean that robbing a jewelry store means stealing nothing at all?
member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
that is claim for bitcoin itself than
@nighteyes, it is not clear how you jump from what you quoted to your claim that bitcoin is illegal. Explain your logic, if any.

I was just stating the argument as I understood it. The argument likely relies on some law meaning that bitcoin its not a recognized currency.

edit: My position is that it is legal...just not legal tender.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
-
Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.
legendary
Activity: 1072
Merit: 1181
Devil's advocate. Bitcoin is a currency. The issuer is the original miner who generated it. The only difference is that the issuers are distributed.

2. "electronic money" means electronically, including magnetically, stored monetary value as represented by a claim on the issuer which is issued on receipt of funds for the purpose of making payment transactions as defined in point 5 of Article 4 of Directive 2007/64/EC, and which is accepted by a natural or legal person other than the electronic money issuer;"

The issuer/central authority is a computer program/network, not the miner.

You can argue about whether there is an issuer or not, but there is definitely no claim. Nobody - including the miner or the network - guarantee anything in return for a bitcoin (or a private key, seen as a certificate) except bitcoin itself.
member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
Devil's advocate. Bitcoin is a currency. The issuer is the original miner who generated it. The only difference is that the issuers are distributed.

2. "electronic money" means electronically, including magnetically, stored monetary value as represented by a claim on the issuer which is issued on receipt of funds for the purpose of making payment transactions as defined in point 5 of Article 4 of Directive 2007/64/EC, and which is accepted by a natural or legal person other than the electronic money issuer;"

The issuer/central authority is a computer program/network, not the miner.
It is also the holder of the "coins". You cant extract the coins for yourself....it is not a commodity. Bitcoins are illegal.

The keys to the coins are an illegal commodity.

Feel free to disagree, but thats the argument for saying bitcoins are a currency.



newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
So since bitcoin is not money, does that mean that Tom Williams stole nothing at all?
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