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Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? - page 4. (Read 63018 times)

full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
So wouldn't the solution to this be to not transfer the money between countries? Ie. have a different exchange in each country and then an exchange would only need to store (and not transfer) the users' funds.

 no, the problem is not transferring money to another country, the "problem" is storing your value, your credit, like a bank.

 when you transfer 200 $ to mtgox , you got a credit of 200 $ in mtgox, and you can also withdraw them, they are attacking on this point, storing money, to make it simple.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
[snip]
Thanks for the explanation! I think I understand it better now. It's basically because Mt. Gox stores its user's USD, EUR etc. and needs to transfer these funds to Mt. Gox in Japan that it needs this license.

So wouldn't the solution to this be to not transfer the money between countries? Ie. have a different exchange in each country and then an exchange would only need to store (and not transfer) the users' funds.
A group of people in my country of residence (Denmark) is trying to set up an local exchange (Copenhagen Bitcoin Exchange (CopBE)) which would (unless they charge fees for deposits) be free for me to deposit money to (since my bank takes no fees for domestic bank transfers). They've written that they have applied for a permit that gives them "limited permission to store electronic currency". So it seems they don't have to become registered as a bank because they're only storing currency, and not transferring it between countries.

As far as I can figure out, an option for Mt. Gox could be that they buy this exchange (CopBE), make it a part of Mt. Gox and then they'd have Denmark covered. Repeat for each country in the world.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
the same will probably happen to the other bank accounts, look at britcoin/intersango they had an account with barclays i think which got shut down and their HSBC account also just got shut down

This. The banks are continually fucking with us, taking up around 70% of our time and has cost us thousands.

The amount of bureaucratic work we put into keeping the exchange running is unbelievable. This court decision is about the worst possible news ever and threatens to end all the exchanges in Europe. We are worried now.

I recommend people, to not keep more than they absolutely need on the exchanges. You should be doing that anyway. Unfortunately many people use us as a savings account (against our recommendation).
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
There's something I'm not getting here. If Bank of France doesn't want to cooperate, find another bank! Right? Why spend time trying to force them to cooperate, while wasting your time and the time of your customers in the EU? Just find another bank that offers you (Mt. Gox) the benefit of the doubt; if the bank hasn't been told to handle Bitcoin as a currency, don't do it. There are plenty of banks in the EU, at least some of which - I'd imagine - would be willing to act as an intermediate.

The Banque de France is the regulator - it's decision effectively legally defines MtGox as a money transfer business and prohibits it from operating without a licence.  If it's not operating within the law, then it's likely that no bank is obliged to give MtGox an account and they may even be restrained from doing so, not just in France but elsewhere in the EU.

PayPal had to move its operations to Luxemburg and become registered as a bank there in order to overcome EU legal issues, and they'll already been licensed as an electronic money issuer in the UK prior to that.  PayPal literally now acts as its own bank in Europe.

It's really not as simple as finding another bank because that wouldn't solve the problem of MtGox needing a license in order to continue offering money transfers under its current business model.

If you look at PayPal, it has different legal status in different places - it's a bank in EU, a licensed deposit-taker in Australia, a licensed money transmitter in the US.  In other countries, it's subject to lots of local regulations about whether it can transmit funds across borders, what methods of deposit it can accept, and whether or not it can hold user funds.  They have to run their business differently in different countries - just like any international business must  - and the Bitcoin exchanges will have to do that too.  

Off-shore banks are certainly one option, but they don't necessarily offer any particular advantage over channelling transfers through the existing Hong Kong account.

There is obviously a financial burden which comes with having to operate differently in different locations and it may be that Bitcoin exchanges are more viable if they each stick to servicing one region than if they try to operate in multiple markets which all have different regulatory frameworks.
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
the same will probably happen to the other bank accounts, look at britcoin/intersango they had an account with barclays i think which got shut down and their HSBC account also just got shut down
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
There's something I'm not getting here. If Bank of France doesn't want to cooperate, find another bank! Right? Why spend time trying to force them to cooperate, while wasting your time and the time of your customers in the EU? Just find another bank that offers you (Mt. Gox) the benefit of the doubt; if the bank hasn't been told to handle Bitcoin as a currency, don't do it. There are plenty of banks in the EU, at least some of which - I'd imagine - would be willing to act as an intermediate.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500

These licenses exist to block competition. You don't "become a licensed financial institution" if you are not extremely well connected and rich.


 +1, at least 200k $ for the licence , and not even sure money is enough to be accepted . . .


  Add to that the insane amounts you must be bonded and insured for on top of the 'assets' you must document......
full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100

These licenses exist to block competition. You don't "become a licensed financial institution" if you are not extremely well connected and rich.


 +1, at least 200k $ for the licence , and not even sure money is enough to be accepted . . .
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
So, obviously, you need to become a licensed financial institution such as a bank or Payment Service company.  Right? 

LOL, I was going to write a comment addressed precisely to people who still refuse to get what's the point on all these licenses.

These licenses exist to block competition. You don't "become a licensed financial institution" if you are not extremely well connected and rich.


I salute you for looking at the big picture.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
So, obviously, you need to become a licensed financial institution such as a bank or Payment Service company.  Right? 

LOL, I was going to write a comment addressed precisely to people who still refuse to get what's the point on all these licenses.

These licenses exist to block competition. You don't "become a licensed financial institution" if you are not extremely well connected and rich.

sr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 250
TOKYO, JAPAN - October 21, 2011 - As our customers may be aware, Mt.Gox is capable of accepting EUR transactions via an intermediary located in France, allowing the European Bitcoin community to purchase and sell Bitcoins at greatly reduced cost and difficulty.

While Bitcoin at a European level is so far not directly impacted by this decision, the Bank de France (France's central bank) has confirmed that because of European banking rules, monetary transfers (deposits and withdrawals) through a single entity are subject to financial regulation and therefore can only be performed by licensed financial institutions such as banks or Payment Service companies (the European Equivalent to a Money Service Business). This decision has forced us to find other payment processing partners within Europe that will allow us to quickly resume all EUR transactions for our European customers soon.

We would like to reassure our customers that this does not mean the end of the support of these currencies on Mt.Gox. Indeed, we are currently working on other alternatives inline with European regulations which will allow us to resume the support of these currencies as well as SEPA transfers without fear of future intervention. We sincerely regret to report, however, that the process of instituting an alternative may take up to two weeks before these services are once again available for use.

In the interim, when depositing or withdrawing EUR or GBP with an Mt.Gox account, we ask our customers to use our HSBC Hong-Kong bank account (“International Wire”, in the Add Funds and Withdraw Funds pages of MtGox.com) or partners such as AurumXchange.

Please see the relevant page (either “Add Funds” or “Withdraw Funds”) on MtGox.com for detailed information on how to proceed.

Rest assured that all resources at our disposal are being used to rectify this issue, and we hope to resume accepting EUR within Europe as soon as possible.

So, obviously, you need to become a licensed financial institution such as a bank or Payment Service company.  Right? 
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1008
Anyway I think we must focus on using decentralized exchanges such as bitcoin-otc or stuffs like that.
+1
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
Quote
the Bank de France (France's central bank) has confirmed that because of European banking rules, monetary transfers (deposits and withdrawals) through a single entity are subject to financial regulation and therefore can only be performed by licensed financial institutions such as banks or Payment Service companies

I'm afraid this does make sense indeed.  The bitcoin network can be considered as a distributed accounting system, and there is no transfer through any "single entity".  But with currency exchanges there is a conventional currency part, which is half of each transaction.  And MtGox does maintain a centralised balance/accounting database at least for those conventional currencies.  Therefore, they do act as bank and/or financial institutions.

If a currency exchange wants to bypass financial regulations, they need to get rid of all the part where they hold currency amounts before they are actually exchanged.  In other words, each transaction should be done using a direct wire transfer between parties.  There are a few websites that propose such a service I believe.  It is, anyway, a very different business model from what MtGox is.

Anyway I think we must focus on using decentralized exchanges such as bitcoin-otc or stuffs like that.

This is just my humble opinion.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019

I don't understand... What decision?

Quote
the Bank de France (France's central bank) has confirmed that because of European banking rules, monetary transfers (deposits and withdrawals) through a single entity are subject to financial regulation and therefore can only be performed by licensed financial institutions such as banks or Payment Service companies

I thought a court was going to make some decision, no? Why does the bank de france get to make any decision here?

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
3.) profit


and how would you profit if you can't add or withdraw any funds?

you didn't do step 2.) right. Use your imagination and think outside the box.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
so... they didn't say weather or not bitcoin is a currency?

They didn't need to.  MtGox hasn't made any statement yet as to whether they're going to pursue a ruling on that issue, but it's essentially irrelevant to the money transfer decision.

cool, well i'd just drop it if i was them.

we can rule on this when we have more strength.. in which case the outcome wont really effect us.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
so... they didn't say weather or not bitcoin is a currency?

They didn't need to.  MtGox hasn't made any statement yet as to whether they're going to pursue a ruling on that issue, but it's essentially irrelevant to the money transfer decision.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
so... they didn't say weather or not bitcoin is a currency?
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
News of the decision doesn't seem to have made it to reddit yet.


has there even been a decision yet???

Quote
While Bitcoin at a European level is so far not directly impacted by this decision, the Bank de France (France's central bank) has confirmed that because of European banking rules, monetary transfers (deposits and withdrawals) through a single entity are subject to financial regulation and therefore can only be performed by licensed financial institutions such as banks or Payment Service companies (the European Equivalent to a Money Service Business). This decision has forced us to find other payment processing partners within Europe that will allow us to quickly resume all EUR transactions for our European customers soon.

From MtGox 21 October press release.

https://mtgox.com/press_release_20111021.html
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
News of the decision doesn't seem to have made it to reddit yet.


has there even been a decision yet???
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