Topic: Bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation - page 3. (Read 757 times)

Well, that's just semantics then, and my argument looks like this:

If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.

This article is not accurate for many reason, one of which is glorifying the fiat that has no value backing it but just a mere paper legislation, that is what actually gives dollar it value, and many conflicting economic policies are already taking a negative toil on it. The bitcoin has come to resolve many issues associated with our fiat and the fraudulent financial system. The bitcoin itself is very difficult and complex to create, this makes it very valuable and it fits as  currency and store of value.

And what is this thing? It's nothing. What gives value to thins thing is the convention. The same type of convention that gives value to Bitcoin. The convention that you can use this "db entry" to get paid for goods and services and also pay.

Let's think further: what makes a difference between a 100$ bill and a 10$ bill? In your words 100$ is clearly a scam because it's no big difference from the 10$. Same paper, same ink, some writings on it. Why would it value more? (The answer is: because of convention.)

Nothing? Ask the miners how much investment were spent on electricity, and mining equipment.


There are no "changes" made in the blockchain, it's an append only "ledger". But not an ordinary "ledger", it's a censorship-resistant "ledger". An open, neutral, permissionless, stateless "ledger" housing digital a "coin" with no central clearing-house.

One "coin" costs $3,800. You might believe the "coin" doesn't value, but the market clearly does.

Well, the point of this discussion is exactly the distinction between the actual thing (DEBT or LOAN or FIAT MONEY) and its representation (DB entry). So, we have TWO separate entities - the thing (money) and DB entry (representation of the thing). On the other hand, Bitcoin is DB entry and DB entry is Bitcoin. Thus, we have only one entity. That means that NOTHING is represented in a DB called blockchain and its entries are just empty or useless mathematical abstractions. It's like changing number 0 to number 50 in your excel spreadsheet. Hence, Bitcoin system is just a system which changes, stores and secures numbers, which has nothing to do with economy, money, payment, asset or whatever, since all these instances presuppose the existence (or the exchange) of actual things, not numbers. In a Bitcoin system no such thing exists, but only numbers, which renders this system just a DB management system.

"something"
lol

mind blowing knowledge of economics "something"

...
so you obviously accept fiat is just digits in a database. thus you have moved away from the database debate.

so you now want to debate the rules/reason/utility for the creation.
fiat is contract rules that are flimsy, uncontrolled and can cause distress for those involved. bitcoin is consensus rules of happy agreement without threat or flimsy rationale..

....
fiat is based on debt. where it costs NOTHING to create fiat debt. but leaves the recipient being informed that they must do things after receiving it 'or else'. though the threat is only feared by those that dont know better about ways to avoid/evade the threat.

however bitcoin has a creation cost. and it does not demand the recipient to do things after receipt 'or else'. it offers freedom and oppertunity

meaning people that desire an economy without threat/slavery/servitude can give goods and services to bitcoin knowing once they have bitcoin they have freedom...

or they can be given fiat requiring headaches to get it, and then threats after getting it.

...
but with that said. to simplify it the consensus rules of creating bitcoin and the rules of creating fiat. are rules. but bitcoins rules and method and results are better than fiat

In the same way fiat money is represented by DB entries at banks, Bitcoin is represented by entries in blockchain.
They are similar. All the rest is convention. In the same way one accept fiat for his work and pay for goods and services, another can accept Bitcoin for his work and pay  for goods and services.
Indeed, there are difficulties in this because the poor legislation and the lack of payment processors make it difficult to accept and spend Bitcoin, but that will be solved in time.

You say debt, loan and so on. Cannot [insert any entity here] lend Bitcoin? As I said, it's all about convention. You have to either get out of that box, either stop trolling, whichever is the case.

The fact that some algorithmic constraint doesn't allow for sum of numeric changes in a database to exceed 21 million, has nothing to do with supply. Supply is a economic concept that describes the total amount of SOMETHING that is available to consumers. Since Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database and SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries, Bitcoin has nothing to do with mentioned economic concept. Bitcoin is an informatics concept related to database management. On the other hand, fiat money is economic concept since fiat money is DEBT or LOAN, which is an actual thing - SOMETHING that has supply by definition.

You are still continuing with your gibberish.

Read my post above again.

Bitcoin's supply is limited. It is not debt papers. It doesn't promise you anything but a safe transaction.

FIAT used to be backed by gold. It is now backed by debt. You can't put a cap on the debt you create. Gold was limited supply, debt is not.

That's why they had to leave gold standard. Bitcoin is similar to gold standard. The supply is limited and you have to work to extract new coins.

The difference is, you can send and receive your money very fast, unlike gold. Also no physical form neither, again unlike gold.

Bitcoin is the ultimate form of money.

Well, your argument is indeed stupid since the ability to produce something doesn't render something a scam. Regarding my argument, it is pretty simple: Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database (change from 0 to 50 initially). By changing entries, SOMETHING cannot appear or despair. Therefore, Bitcoin is NOTHING. Telling the public that NOTHING is money or asset is SCAM.

Stupid argument? At least I got one. You don't have any.

Come back when you have something to say. Cursing and shouting gibberish won't help you.

What a stupid argument. It is like saying: we can create numbers infinitely - therefore NUMBERS are SCAM.

Well, you can keep repeating your nonsense but this won't change the fact that fiat money is DEBT(right and obligation), while entry in a database is just means to expres the size of this right and obligation. Your Bitcoin on the other hand is entry in a database that expresses the size of NOTHING.

Debt is a scam when you can create them infitinitely.

USD is debt paper and FED can create debt paper infinitely. The debt papers they are creating is not backed by anything.

This is how this game ends:
Switzerland’s Central Bank Made $55 Billion Last Year—More Than Apple

Switzerland's CB made more money than Apple by doing simply nothing.

This is what the US doing for decades.

You can't do any of these with Bitcoin.

FIAT = Debt Paper = Bubble = SCAM.

Bitcoin = Pin.

Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that changed entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset.

fiat money is as you said in previous posts. just an entry in a database.
the contract terms are not saved to that bank database. fiat money is just digits in a database

the rules of granting a loan are the rules of decision of those maintaining the databas. much like the bitcoins consensus protocol decides which block is acceptable

what happens with the units of account of a database are not shown in the database. again the consensus of a bank. the consensus protocol of bitcoin and the humans involved decide the value and reason to move the unit of account from one entity to another

bitcoin however is actually better than the banks fiat database because bitcoin can define rules in code rather than relying on paper/human thought. EG smart contracts can set utility/function to the units of account. even the very simple things such as a block reward remains locked(maturing) for 100 further blocks ahead of it before being spendable. thus making bitcoins unit of account more than just an entry in a database. but something of function/utility.

bitcoin too can do all the function of fiat. it can be transfered, the reason for the transfer can be for the same human decision as fiat, for being sold against products and services, inheritance. and yes even used to pay for a house. it can be escrowed and contracts set up that people then need to pay with other financial sources to repay the bitcoin payment of the house. just like mortgages


loan agreements are just protocol rules. much like bitcoin consensus rules. but its funny how your now diverting away from talking about the fiat itself and now talking about rules of human decision outside the context of the unit of account database

no they are not forced to use it until all their debt is paid off
if i have british debt. i can simply get on a plane. go to america and use dollars and just leave the british debt.simple choose never to touch a pound ever again
debts can be written off
i can live on bitcoin, euro or any other currency. i can even live like a hermit and forrage for food. or do manual labour in exchang for barter for food/lodgings and avoid all fiat currency all together
this is because the fiat database unit of account is as you say just numbers on a database

a blockreward is just an entry in a database. but the bitcoin consensus rules are the rights and obligations that make that blockreward 'granted' to exist. learn about consensus rules and orphans/rejects. it might surprise you
EG a block reward may only exist if it shows it has performed a minimum task and met rules. only blocks meting thos obligations get the right to have a blockrward granted to exist.

same as fiat is just an entry in a database. but the banker rules are the rights and obligations that make that fiat 'granted' to exist

atleast grasp the basics of economy

And they can print those papers infinitely which means they can create infinite debt.

That's uh scam baby.

You can't do that with bitcoin because you can't create more than 21 million coins.

The amount of debt you can have with bitcoin is limited, unlike FIAT.

Go take eco101. You need proper education.

BITCOIN is being use to scam people, but BTC it self is not a scam but another level of money!
This ipens new opportunity to many people, but these people or we, should know the right use of this currency.
If we will be looking forward to it like what pyramiding made to us before, then you should stay away!

Central Bank printed money are papers that represent loans of borrowers the same as paper Treasury bill certificates represented a short-term debt obligation of the U.S. government. Loan and debt are SOMETHING. Bitcoin is NOTHING.

When a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because fiat money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. Given the fact that a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited, it follows that dollars, euros or pounds are actual things with intrinsic value.

What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options: either they will sell their services and valuable things to fiat money owners directly on the marketplace to get money for their loan payments, or the bank will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell their valuable things to the owners of fiat money indirectly, via foreclosure. So one way or another, legal enforceability of fiat money, i.e. its claim status, ensures that its owners will come back into the possession of valuable things similar to those they handed out to borrowers or other people in the money circulation chain.

And that’s the beauty of fiat money. Since it comes from debt, and debt is a legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for dollars, euros or pounds will exist as long as this type of money exists. In other words, even if people completely abandon fiat money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off, since non-acceptance of fiat money won’t make borrowers’ obligations go away. That means that ultimately, fiat money will provide its owners with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, fiat money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.

So no, loans are not just entries into a bank database. Loans are both rights and obligations. Bitcoin on the other hand is just entry into a database, i.e. - NOTHING.