What if it is a database?
If you think that way, then Central Bank printed money are just papers.
It is the people who make these things valuable.
Let me think further like you...
Gold is a damn stone which shouldn't have any value... but it does. Guess why? Because we people give it.
Bitcoin does something and what it does is being found valuable by the community.
As simple as it gets...
Topic: Bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation - page 4. (Read 757 times)
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.
you say FIAT is real because its something.. you say its something because a bank grants a loan to exist.
then by saying such, your also saying bitcoin is real because its something. the blockchain and people validating it say its something because they grant the block reward to exist
EG
a orphaned block/rejected block is not something. the community reject such blocks. and so orphaned blocks are not something.
the same as rejected loan agreements is not something
you yourself then countered yourself by saying fiat is not something by initially saying
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database,
then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.
bank loans are exactly the same. changing entries in a database. thas all a bank loan is....then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.
granting a bank loan is based on meeting a rule threshold for acceptance
so if you think bank fiatloans are something. then bitcoin rewards are something too. as those that grant/accept a block, agree it is acceptable and meets the accepted threshold to allowed to be created
But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
the payment is not simply changing a entry. its having the entry which can only be changed by a certain entity giving permission for another entity to have it. this is about ownership, permission, and change of controller/ownership/permission..
now you understand that FIAT and bitcoin in respect of data is the same. what you have to realise is the VALUE of that data is decided by those that have control/permission to change the data from one entity to another.
take for instance, bitcoin. people know the bottomline value of bitcoin (the lowest value they would dare swap the control/permission of the entry) is based on the creation/acquisition cost of that. so if it costs $43k of electric and ASIC hardware to create a block with a reward entry of 12.5. then those with permission to change who gets to has control/permission of the 12.5 entry wont swap such permission below cost.
the receiver wont accept the 12.5 entry for $43k if they did not think it was worth that much effort/cost
this is where the markets develop. where people start to display their thinking of what the value should be for the entries they want to send and receive.
and this is where bitcoin has more benefits than FIAT.
because there is an underlying cost for its creation/acquisition (asic mining)
yes there is speculation. which is where ABOVE the underlying value(bottomline cost) that people speculate that future or utility premium to add on to the value. but the underlying cost/value still has relevance.
people get to a point where they would see that bitcoin wont just disappear instantly. thus there is no point selling right down to zero as they can see it will still function the next day. so people instead set a bottom limit to how low they will refuse to sell below. which is mainly their acquisition/creation cost(buying/mining cost)
FIAT has a more flimsier less set in stone underlying value. U.S government for instance try to form a underlying value of things such as $7.50 is the minimum value for an hour of sweat labour (minimum wage laws)
Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy.
Except that it clearly is an economy. It's our economy and we couldn't care less if it doesn't meet your "standards" to qualify as an economy. You are of no consequence to us.
It is not economy because economy assumes the exchange of SOMETHING while in the case of Bitcoin NOTHING is exchanged but only database entries are altered.
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness. But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
And where does the value for the LOAN come from? Cmon dude, do some critical thinking, maybe fill up your basic economics gaps. There's nothing that FIAT has going for it, and bitcoin doesn't - except for a number of ways to take power away from the working people and putting it in the hands of central planners. For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
This is retarded.
Bitcoin can do everything what FIAT money does, except the inflation which is a feature.
the FED can create infinite amounts of Dollars but there will be only 21 million bitcoins. No central bank has the power to create more coins.
This is retarded. Gosh - I was about to say that but you beat me too it
"Fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan" - What? So your saying that banks can 'Make Something from Nothing"? and call it valuable? Just grant as many loans as possible then right? Still making tons of free money?
I really thought you made it clear that something cannot come from nothing?
Fiat money is made from a printing press, and since the gold standard is out the window, the value is traditionally based upon the economy and the amount of 'bills' in circulation... But that is still something people need to agree on, which is why currencies are also very unstable.
I'm guessing your methods of "Money Creation" was what Venezuela was following.
This is technology and not a scam, if in the case of a transfer the sent is a value, and if you consider bitcoin to be just manipulation, then you will never be able to exchange bitcoin with fiat that you can use to meet your needs.
Calling a database management system a payment system and a database entry a money is a scam by definition.
You're clearly a troll who does not wish to engage in actual conversation, or have an agenda. Go waste someone else's time.
This is technology and not a scam, if in the case of a transfer the sent is a value, and if you consider bitcoin to be just manipulation, then you will never be able to exchange bitcoin with fiat that you can use to meet your needs.
Calling a database management system a payment system and a database entry a money is a scam by definition.
Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy.
Except that it clearly is an economy. It's our economy and we couldn't care less if it doesn't meet your "standards" to qualify as an economy. You are of no consequence to us.
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness. But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) is transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
Hmm.
Bit wired question. let me clear things one by one.
First of Bitcoin, which is made up of a combination with two great quantum physics technologies which are blockchain and cryptography. Independently both have "ZERO" value. But the experiment held with both these technologies invented an amazing, revolutionary decentralized platform within the peer-to-peer network.
Now according to the specification of Bitcoin, Bitcoin has a specific amount to be generated according to a timely manner. And for making this happen it uses SHA256 algorithm to encrypt data within the block, while processing transaction verification and data storing require a certain amount of power which can be generated by using electricity and other types of equipment.
Now day by day this power is increasing and affecting the production of Bitcoin, which ultimately impact on the price of BTC against fiat. Halving is also the most important factor can also impact on price according to demand and supply.
Considering all parameters and technologies, Bitcoin is far more than Fiat. Basically, Bitcoin can be considered as a commodity, as it's limited.
Till the day we, human are still testing possibilities. But Bitcoin has proved its existence already. And Proof of Existence is a great proof for the upcoming future, just matter is acceptance.
This is technology and not a scam, if in the case of a transfer the sent is a value, and if you consider bitcoin to be just manipulation, then you will never be able to exchange bitcoin with fiat that you can use to meet your needs.
So no new or original thoughts, then? Just another dull rehash of your last couple of topics with no fresh insights. Have you ever stopped to consider that not all of us place any value in your legally enforced debt obligations? If you value them, great. Stick to that and leave us in peace. We happen to believe our system is better off without those.
If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that. But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system. There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions. A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return. You can keep that crap.
If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that. But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system. There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions. A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return. You can keep that crap.
Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy.
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair
Yeah, despair is the only thing you got right in this whole post.
And the PoD (proof of despair) is when you create topics like those:
So no new or original thoughts, then? Just another dull rehash of your last couple of topics with no fresh insights.
Of course, there will be no original posts or arguments or whatever, the whole anti-bitcoin debate is based in his case is based on only one thing, how they are created.
Honestly, I thought this bear market that will probably reach 1.5 years would bring in some better trolls but damn, not just the price and news are lame lately, even the bears look like they had a rough winter.
So no new or original thoughts, then? Just another dull rehash of your last couple of topics with no fresh insights. Have you ever stopped to consider that not all of us place any value in your legally enforced debt obligations? If you value them, great. Stick to that and leave us in peace. We happen to believe our system is better off without those.
If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that. But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system. There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions. A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return. You can keep that crap.
If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that. But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system. There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions. A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return. You can keep that crap.
A private key is a mathematical proof of ownership for whatever bitcoins are associated with that key. That mathematical proof is the only way to interact with those coins, nothing else can interact with it, no government, company or person can do it without those private keys. Cryptography makes it impossible.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
This is just another instance of language manipulation. "Block Reward" is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database (blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, and this change is called Bitcoin. This has nothing to do with
"tangible principles", but it is just a database management.
Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which banks only hold a fraction of the money their customers deposit as reserves. This allows them to use the rest of it to make loans and thereby essentially create new money. This gives commercial banks the power to directly affect money supply. When the rest of the money they 'create' is done, how do you think this is done. Not by adjusting a centralized database?
Don't cite something incorrectly then state wrong again. This conversation is pretty tedious
A private key is a mathematical proof of ownership for whatever bitcoins are associated with that key. That mathematical proof is the only way to interact with those coins, nothing else can interact with it, no government, company or person can do it without those private keys. Cryptography makes it impossible.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
This is just another instance of language manipulation. "Block Reward" is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database (blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, and this change is called Bitcoin. This has nothing to do with
"tangible principles", but it is just a database management.
Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which banks only hold a fraction of the money their customers deposit as reserves. This allows them to use the rest of it to make loans and thereby essentially create new money. This gives commercial banks the power to directly affect money supply. When the rest of the money they 'create' is done, how do you think this is done. Not by adjusting a centralized database?
Don't cite something incorrectly then state wrong again. This conversation is pretty tedious
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness. But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
This is not accurate, payment is not the transfer of just services rights or goods, it can also be money if there is a consensus between a group of people that X is worth Y - then that thing is viewed as valuable. Usually due to some sort of utility or feature that it possesses.
Here you see the birth of programmable money, not issued by a state but rather founded in cryptography, accountability is achieved via a transparently distributed ledger.
You are arguing from an angle based on what looks like clear bias, there are several accounts in history where people agreed upon something having X value and traded it as such, this is what happened here. People see the utility this thing has and agreed that the market value is X.
It is just social economics and math + some good utility at play.
This is by definition what fractional reserve banking is doing, changing entries in a database and creating 10 times the money they actually have on hand.
There is little point in continuing this discussion when all you desire to do is fight your angered point of view, rather than look at it objectively.
Wrong again. What fractional reserve banking is doing is issuing, securing and repaying loans, while entries in a database are just means to evidence that process.
A private key is a mathematical proof of ownership for whatever bitcoins are associated with that key. That mathematical proof is the only way to interact with those coins, nothing else can interact with it, no government, company or person can do it without those private keys. Cryptography makes it impossible.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness. But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
But by changing blockchain value from 1 to 3 for e.g., obviously NOTHING has been transferred since values in that database are neither representations of rights nor goods or services. So, changing numbers in a blockchain has nothing to do with payment or economy which renders bitcoin a scam that thrives on language manipulation.
This is not accurate, payment is not the transfer of just services rights or goods, it can also be money if there is a consensus between a group of people that X is worth Y - then that thing is viewed as valuable. Usually due to some sort of utility or feature that it possesses.
Here you see the birth of programmable money, not issued by a state but rather founded in cryptography, accountability is achieved via a transparently distributed ledger.
You are arguing from an angle based on what looks like clear bias, there are several accounts in history where people agreed upon something having X value and traded it as such, this is what happened here. People see the utility this thing has and agreed that the market value is X.
It is just social economics and math + some good utility at play.
This is by definition what fractional reserve banking is doing, changing entries in a database and creating 10 times the money they actually have on hand.
There is little point in continuing this discussion when all you desire to do is fight your angered point of view, rather than look at it objectively.
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For. e.g. fiat money is created when a bank grants a loan i.e. SOMETHING, which is why paying someone with fiat money is actually the transfer of rights derived from bank loans. That is why fiat money fits the definition of payment — SOMETHING (rights recorded in the banking system) are transferred from one person to another.
HmmHow do you find the notes in the first place? Isn't it you just print when you want? Have you backed it by anything?
It's like if I have political shelter and have a print machine which is able to print money and the papers and the holograms and the designs then I can print as many notes as I want. You call it currency system?
If that's the case then fiat too is nothingness, a central authority creates the physical currency with backing of gold or other assets. When the same is transfered digitally, what gets transferred is just a value which is nothing. The cash will be in the reserve, so we're giving value to nothing.
Fiat is loan, and loan is not nothing.
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