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Topic: Bitcoin is doomed. Thanks IRS!!! You Ass hats! - page 6. (Read 19754 times)

full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.

On the other hand, ALL of your expenses (and then some) are deductible. Plus you can use your common sense or experienced knowledge to sell some (or all) of your mined bitcoins when the price rebounds and buy back when the price drops, thus becoming not just a miner but an investor and speculator with a range of options largely depending on how you are doing, for instance, if after the first three months you have been able to sell at higher prices than current, you may choose not to sell what you are currently mining and wait for a rebound in price. You can also buy at this lower price with the proceeds of previous sales. You DO have a lot of options and a lot of deductions as well as many opportunities through the year not only to obtain profits but to minimize possible temporary losses.

But complaining is, obviously, neither taxable nor deductible, so complain at will.

There wasn't complaining in my post. You are just hyper sensitive.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.

On the other hand, ALL of your expenses (and then some) are deductible. Plus you can use your common sense or experienced knowledge to sell some (or all) of your mined bitcoins when the price rebounds and buy back when the price drops, thus becoming not just a miner but an investor and speculator with a range of options largely depending on how you are doing, for instance, if after the first three months you have been able to sell at higher prices than current, you may choose not to sell what you are currently mining and wait for a rebound in price. You can also buy at this lower price with the proceeds of previous sales. You DO have a lot of options and a lot of deductions as well as many opportunities through the year not only to obtain profits but to minimize possible temporary losses.

But complaining is, obviously, neither taxable nor deductible, so complain at will.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred. 

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things. 

Is this about right?


Yes, except for "They can now sell off" - bad language, should be "They can now buy into dollar". Thet will winn even more if they do not dollar out now, they can just start spending and keep the rest in bitcoin.


full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
What IRS does affect a big capital market for crypto. It DOES matter. By your logic, you should give no shit about china either.


About this IRS tax topic - it's been announced and hinted at since last year. Why all the panic now? Some people want to increase their BTC holdings?
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I don't care shit about IRS Im not an American. USA is not the whole world.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I am quite surprised at the sense of worry I detect on this forum regarding the IRS guidance.  The IRS simply expressed their opinion on how the existing laws apply to bitcoin.  For the most part, I agreed that the guidance was accurate.  You are still free to continue making the same decisions you were making before this guidance was issued, as the same laws still apply.    

Capital gains in the US are subject to tax, so this obviously applies whether you realize a capital gain in bitcoin or in Berkshire stock.  To eliminate capital gains or income tax would have required an act of Congress.      

I am also surprised people think that this is some sort of attack on bitcoin.  In my opinion, the IRS just did their job.  They know it will be difficult to enforce collection of capital gains taxes on small purchases and trades, and they probably don't really care.  But when the Winkevoss ETF comes out, the capital gains investors may realize using these registered products will be a nice revenue stream.  And if you personally do really well in bitcoin and buy a nice house and car in the US, then I hope you've voluntarily claimed a reasonable amount of income or capital gains on your taxes.  

The bogeymen are in your mind.  Bitcoin is growing as it should.  
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Having bitcoin classified as property rather than currency is the best possible scenario.  The capital gains tax rate is 0% for most people.  0%... hard to beat that.

0% for most people?
What is needed to go above 0%?
Sorry I have no idea.

Enough income (or hold less than 365 days)

If you hold the asset less than 365 days it is a short term gain and taxed at your marginal tax rate (10% to 39.6%).

If you hold the asset for 365+ days and your marginal tax rate is in the 10% or 15% bracket then your long capital gains rate is 0%
If you hold the asset for 365+ days and your marginal tax rate is in a higher bracket then your long capital gains rate is 15%

The cutoff is for the 15% bracket is an adjusted gross income of $36,250 if single or married filing separately and $72,500 if married filing jointly.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred.  

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things.  

Is this about right?


It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.

Yes, it looks like it is a bad hit for small miners existing entirely in the bitcoin ecosystem.  To that extent, I think it is bad for anybody trying to exist entirely in a bitcoin ecosystem.  Had it been taxed like a currency, then the proposition of existing in an ecosystem would have been much easier I think.  (though I am not an economics graduate so I can't say for sure)

I still think it was a huge win for old school miners from 2011 that were sitting on a ton of bitcoin for relatively little investment at the time.  (true it was a very risky gamble at that time though) 

It doesn't make any difference at all for small miners.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred.  

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things.  

Is this about right?


It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.

Yes, it looks like it is a bad hit for small miners existing entirely in the bitcoin ecosystem.  To that extent, I think it is bad for anybody trying to exist entirely in a bitcoin ecosystem.  Had it been taxed like a currency, then the proposition of existing in an ecosystem would have been much easier I think.  (though I am not an economics graduate so I can't say for sure)

I still think it was a huge win for old school miners from 2011 that were sitting on a ton of bitcoin for relatively little investment at the time.  (true it was a very risky gamble at that time though) 
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
When I read through threads like this, I realize the buying opportunity.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred. 

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things. 

Is this about right?


It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred. 

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things. 

Is this about right?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
 

For a good look at the currency of the future take a look at Mintcoin It's a new energy efficient Eco friendly coin with a growing number of Merchants and services
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
perhaps bitcoin will prosper in the real free countries of the world, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand.
its obvious the debt ridden USA has deteriorated into financial tyranny.

The legal requirement to pay taxes is really nothing new since 1924 in the USA.  Al Capone's conviction and prison sentence was evidence of that.

What is the most onerous is the provisions from the Patriot Act, which brought in the KYC/AML laws, probably the strongest in the world.   Now the rest of the world is beginning to discriminate against Americans, since they don't want the long arm of the IRS violating their sovereignty.  i.e. Switzerland.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/why-bitcoin-can-no-longer-work-as-a-virtual-currency-in-1-paragraph/359648/

I hate to admit it, but this story makes a lot of sense.

We can't legally trade BTC for BTC, we taxes at every level because its property not currency.....

Can someone please provide another, hopefully more positive, way to look at this?

Im going to repeat, but only because of how annoying it is when my fellow Americans think they are the center of the universe, and the only country in the world.

Ban Bitcoin in america, and it wont amount to a hill of beans for Bitcoin's ability to continue elsewhere.

The USA is not the only country in the world, and outside our borders, few countries give a shit what the IRS says.

Think Globally folks. 

-B-

perhaps bitcoin will prosper in the real free countries of the world, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand.
its obvious the debt ridden USA has deteriorated into financial tyranny.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1001
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/why-bitcoin-can-no-longer-work-as-a-virtual-currency-in-1-paragraph/359648/

I hate to admit it, but this story makes a lot of sense.

We can't legally trade BTC for BTC, we taxes at every level because its property not currency.....

Can someone please provide another, hopefully more positive, way to look at this?

Im going to repeat, but only because of how annoying it is when my fellow Americans think they are the center of the universe, and the only country in the world.

Ban Bitcoin in america, and it wont amount to a hill of beans for Bitcoin's ability to continue elsewhere.

The USA is not the only country in the world, and outside our borders, few countries give a shit what the IRS says.

Think Globally folks. 

-B-
full member
Activity: 350
Merit: 102
its good news.. because u pay wad u gain.. the good news is.. u can volunteer to pay when u do it in bitcoin =)

so its GOOD news get it?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
I don't really care if the United States government embrace Bitcion as a currency.  I far more interested in what the American people embrace it as  and yes the rest of the global population if that was already obvious.

The IRS just legitimized bitcoin.  How could they embrace it any warmer without writing laws that favour bitcoin over other asset classes?  Did people really think the IRS would say "capital gains tax applies to all assets except bitcoin because it is special"?  The guidance simply says that if you realize a capital gain on bitcoin, that you should voluntarily report that gain and pay the appropriate taxes.  But this was the law before the guidance was issued too. 

Check out the post on ZGL wallets to see how voluntarily complying with US tax law could become a breeze. 

+1.

This was bound to happen. It's not good news.
+2
I really don't want to see this happen.
b!z
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1010
I don't really care if the United States government embrace Bitcion as a currency.  I far more interested in what the American people embrace it as  and yes the rest of the global population if that was already obvious.

The IRS just legitimized bitcoin.  How could they embrace it any warmer without writing laws that favour bitcoin over other asset classes?  Did people really think the IRS would say "capital gains tax applies to all assets except bitcoin because it is special"?  The guidance simply says that if you realize a capital gain on bitcoin, that you should voluntarily report that gain and pay the appropriate taxes.  But this was the law before the guidance was issued too. 

Check out the post on ZGL wallets to see how voluntarily complying with US tax law could become a breeze. 

+1.

This was bound to happen. It's not good news.
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