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Topic: Bitcoin is doomed. Thanks IRS!!! You Ass hats! - page 8. (Read 19756 times)

legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.

No, it won't. You see, Bitcoin has utility beyond "daily spending". I don't really understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

i can't think of anything bitcoin does better than fiat besides buying drugs on silkroad.
anything else i can do more easily with a credit card.

Well, you aren't thinking hard enough.

It's an asset that is solely under the control of the private key holder.

If you can't see the ramifications of that, then perhaps Bitcoin isn't for you.

its a bunch of binary data replicated worldwide.
bitcoin is not an asset if no one uses it as a currency.

The 'replicated worldwide' is exactly what give BTC it's value to me.

If the data is replicated only among organizations which can be pressured by the government and/or mis-use the intelligence data coming off the system (e.g., Google, Facebook, etc) or used in significant quantities by organizations who can be pressured to damage fungibility (e.g., Overstock, TigerDirect, etc) then I consider this a viable attack surface and a legitimate threat to the value I see in Bitcoin.

This is no idle conjecture or threat in my case.  It has been a very real factor in my decision making processes in deciding how to draw down my hoard.  (There are other factors also, to be fair.  Among them, I obtained my hoard in the first place intending to re-distribute it when there was less of an excess BTC liquidity problem.  At a profit, of course, but also as a legitimate contribution to the ecosystem.)

copper member
Activity: 3948
Merit: 2201
Verified awesomeness ✔
Yeah "doomed". Shut up and piss off.
member
Activity: 118
Merit: 10
The U.S. Government was not going to embrace bitcoin as a currency.  Given that there were only two options.  1.  Figure out how to tax it.   2. Make it illegal.    They are taxing bitcoins like gold.  If you mine gold and keep it under your cabin floor in sacks (or mine bitcoin and keep it in your wallet) when you cash it in, you have to pay income tax (not capital gains) on the amount you cashed in.   If you trade and make a profit, you need to keep track of your losses and gains and pay capital gains tax on any net profit for the year, just as if you were trading in gold, wheat or any other commodity.   Sales tax for internet sales should be the same as it is today.   Most internet purchases don't impose sales tax, it will be the same for those taking bitcoin.   

Overall, given the option to ban it by the U.S. or tax it, I prefer the latter.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.

No, it won't. You see, Bitcoin has utility beyond "daily spending". I don't really understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

i can't think of anything bitcoin does better than fiat besides buying drugs on silkroad.
anything else i can do more easily with a credit card.

Well, you aren't thinking hard enough.

It's an asset that is solely under the control of the private key holder.

If you can't see the ramifications of that, then perhaps Bitcoin isn't for you.

its a bunch of binary data replicated worldwide.
bitcoin is not an asset if no one uses it as a currency.
g4c
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.

No, it won't. You see, Bitcoin has utility beyond "daily spending". I don't really understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

i can't think of anything bitcoin does better than fiat besides buying drugs on silkroad.
anything else i can do more easily with a credit card.

Well, you aren't thinking hard enough.

It's an asset that is solely under the control of the private key holder.

If you can't see the ramifications of that, then perhaps Bitcoin isn't for you.

word.

also to those saying they are "happy to pay tax":

I have just introduced a global taxation myself, the taxation scheme is set up so that I can fund my efforts to make the world a better place, as such: all Bitcoin holders MUST send me 1% of their total holdings to this address, payments MUST be made annually.

1JQb5ds6VAY8LcQiBPwBuUjSrawW9k98nA

Pay the tax and be happy. Oh what's that you say "why the fuck should I pay you?"... yeah, now you're getting it.

I have nothing against paying toward utilities I use, refuse collection, road mantainence etc. but to be taxed on your wealth seems a little shit, especially when you realise those with all the gold pay virtually zero tax, they didn't get rich paying taxes, believe me!



sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 251
I like big BITS and I cannot lie.
I feel bad for the miners but for anyone else you could sell your bitcoin for cash, they cant tax cash exchange.

Yes, it is... I think you're saying they can't enforce it, right?
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 251
I like big BITS and I cannot lie.
Actually I think this is very positive, since it defined digital property first time in human history. Bitcoin is the first non-duplicatable digital property, and since it is half anonymous and can move oversea in seconds, the taxation need a whole new set of rules, or simply becomes impractical

domain names aren't digital property?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
I feel bad for the miners but for anyone else you could sell your bitcoin for cash, they cant tax cash exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.

No, it won't. You see, Bitcoin has utility beyond "daily spending". I don't really understand why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

i can't think of anything bitcoin does better than fiat besides buying drugs on silkroad.
anything else i can do more easily with a credit card.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
o but wait... i can't... i first need to check what the freakin exchange rate was when i got my bitcoins compare it to today's and then write down to report my capital gains to the IRS...

Writing it down because your bitcoin wallet is broken?  Keeping a record because it's impossible to consult the blockchain later?

If you're smart enough to transact bitcoins, I really don't get how you could be too stupid to run your wallet through a TurboTax-Bitcoin app at tax time.


or i can pay with fiat and not have to consult with anything.

Bullshit. You've already paid taxes on that fiat or you will come tax day.

I think his point is that people won't bother, they'll just put a hand in their pocket as they always have and buy the coffee with cash.
Anything that complicates a bitcoin transaction in any way reduces the likelihood of normal people or businesses adopting it.

Why would that cafe even bother with bitcoin and add something else to their paperwork when everyone already has a simple and trusted way to pay them?

Not everyone is into crypto, the majority have no idea what the fuck it is yet, they just want something to buy that coffee with and anything new needs to be an improvement on what they know. They don't give a shit about economics or governments or the future...they elected the morons who run our countries.

I'm wondering who's going to be splashing out on thousands in mining gear when the returns aren't there anymore. Most rigs won't break even at the rate we have now. People with 10k rigs on order must be gutted.

Well... maybe Bitcoin's best use case has nothing to do with buying a $0.99 cup of coffee!

Let the "morons" you speak of keep their fiat! I don't care if they live their entire lives as debt slaves.

If bitcoin fails to get those "morons" on board bitcoin will not be used or accepted by almost anyone and thus become valueless and useless.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Here in Canada we have what are known as Tax-Free Savings Accounts (TFSA).  Money and investments placed in a TFSA can grow tax free (interest, dividends capital gains).  You are free to pull money out of your TFSA at any point in time, but you can't put it back in until the next tax year.  Each year we get $5,500 more room in our TFSA.

If you have $25,000 of room in your TFSA and place $25,000 of stock in it, and if this stock reaches $250,000, then you can sell the stock and use the money tax free (i.e., you do NOT have to pay capital gains tax).  The interesting thing is that from this point on, the room in your TFSA remains at $250,000.  The TFSA will slowly phase-out capital gains tax on financial products in Canada for many people.

With the recent tax clarification, I expect to see innovative companies offer registered bitcoin investments for TFSAs and RRSPs (Canada) and 401Ks and Roth IRAs (USA).  

I think this would be quite helpful.  


legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007

I can be corrected on this one, in case I misunderstood something, but the entire discussion in here seems to miss one point:

The IRS decision (guidance?) applies to capital *gains*, i.e. the difference in value per unit at time of buying said unit vs. selling it. Correct so far?

If, at some point in the future, BTC/USD more or less stabilizes, the problem disappears (or at least become negligible, except for very large amounts traded).


tl;dr This decision might hurt current speculative value, but it doesn't really harm BTC functionality assuming a more stable exchange rate in the future.


Also, if you made 3,000 bitcoin purchases over the course of the year, and each one had exactly zero capital gain or loss, from my preliminary research it appears that you are required to not report this.  (However, you should keep private records.)  

If you do report 3,000 day-to-day transactions where each one has exactly zero gain, then it could be interpreted as a "frivolous filing" and you would be fined $5,000 by the IRS as per the Frivolous Filing Fine.  

Check out the ZGL wallet here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/zgl-wallet-achieve-zero-gainloss-for-tax-purposes-with-coin-control-531135

This is not legal advice.  IANAL.  


hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 500
But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

America is the greatest country in the history of the world.. not Tongue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

You can measure it however you want. Yes, Im sure in Luxemburg, Frosted Flakes are covered in 90% Bolivian cocaine and the roads are paved with the evaporated tears of the proletariat.

Im quite sure its wonderful there. But when having these discussions, its also important to acknowledge reality. And the reality is, we have most of the "money." (lol)

In fact, our "money" is how other countries denominate and measure their own currencies, products and services... because:

While we dont make anything, we sure as hell like to buy stuff. And as long as we are the biggest buyers, our skin in this game is worth the most.

"You will now be returned to your normal program of FUD and Loathing in Las Taxvegas"

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
Gold has industrial value, so its value will remain until viable alternatives compete with those industrial applications.  Fiat and part of BTC value is created by the perception of people like you and me. A piece of paper has no intrinsic value or utility, however BTC goes beyond this and actually does have a very valuable function which is the blockchain.

2tights. I don't think thats necessarily true. Gold's industrial value is peanuts compared to its monetary value.

No monetary media needs to have an industrial value. In fact, it's an important property of any monetary medium that it works as well as possible as a token of exchange and as badly as possible for anything else (other wise it has a tendency to go out of circulation as gold jewellery, circuitry and teeth have done). The monetary medium derives its value from it's "role" in the economy, not from any sense of "intrinsic value" (which is a misnomer anyway - it's easily demonstrate-able that nothing has intrinsic value).

Gold was the "bitcoin" of the old physical world markets. It had certain characteristics of fungibility, resistance to counterfeiting, ilmited supply etc which made it function as a token of value. It was the fact that it was widely adopted in a monetary role that have it it's value - not the other way around.

Here's an example to illustrate. If you go to a kids funpark and buy a few of those plastic tokens for the rides, they'll cost you about 5 Eu / Dollars whatever each. On the other hand, if you buy them in a hardware shop, they'll cost about 1 cent each. So you're paying a markup of many thousands of percent for exactly the same plastic token that is in the monetary role. Nothing to do with "intrinsic value" of plastic tokens.

Gold is exactly the same - it doesn't not have any intrinsic value. It's just that people make a deeply rooted association with gold and value historically, so the word 'intrinsic' gets used to reflect that.

We now live in an electronic trading environment, however and you can't "hold" gold electronically so a new monetary medium is required, hence the emergence of cryptocurrencies.

When you look at it analytically in this way, they actually have more justification for a high valuation than gold does.




unfortunately this what you said is all wrong .. people do hold electronic and paper gold all the time.. if you go to say monex and you tell them you want to buy gold at their exchange and have them store that gold for you in their vault then they will supposedly buy gold for u and store it in their vault for you .. whether they actually ever buy the gold is dabatable but they will issue you a certificate saying that they bought the gold and that you own it .. problem is if you do not hold the physical metal in your hand then you don't really own any gold even if your certificate says you do .. paper or electronic digits is not gold. if monex were to go belly up well you will never see that gold your certificate says you own . now lets go look at the GLD markets. that is all paper gold being traded. the price of gold is manipulated by people who trade in paper gold. the central banks mostly manipulate the price of gold using this paper system where one ounce of physical gold can control like 100000 ounces of paper gold. that is all fakelands and is not real gold.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Professional anarchist
Actually I think this is very positive, since it defined digital property first time in human history. Bitcoin is the first non-duplicatable digital property, and since it is half anonymous and can move oversea in seconds, the taxation need a whole new set of rules, or simply becomes impractical

There's an analogy about a half-watertight submarine in there somewhere.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
It's not illegal. That's good news.

Remember, the IRS only taxes Americans. There are 248 nations.

But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

I nearly spat out my coffee!
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 102
But the USA is the richest nation on the planet...by quite some way. This will have a negative effect on Bitcoin.

America is the greatest country in the history of the world.. not Tongue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Actually I think this is very positive, since it defined digital property first time in human history. Bitcoin is the first non-duplicatable digital property, and since it is half anonymous and can move oversea in seconds, the taxation need a whole new set of rules, or simply becomes impractical
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Of course, IRS never changes its mind.

Relax, and just prepare to pay the capital gains tax if you need to. Consult a professional and find ways to minimize it and gain deductions.

For Fuck's Sake, don't flip your shit everytime 'THE MAN' makes an announcement. Adapt. Adjust. Improve.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I also hate him very much USA government does not recognize the BTC the money even if the IRS or receiving but its property tax
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