Bitcoin or gold? - page 561. | Bitcointalksearch.org

GreenStox

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Quote from: deisik on April 24, 2015, 03:13:35 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 24, 2015, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

No central bank is hoarding it except from the BRICS. The others couldnt care a shit about gold and they are already working on their next ponzi schemes, the SDR instruments issued by the IMF.

Okay, could you please post a time chart proving your point which shows time dynamics of gold reserves of the first 4 top gold holders (a hint, these are most developed Western countries)...

And its not just that their gold reserves are not rising (but falling sharply)

Its also their debt rises exponentially so their gold reserves is useless, if i were them i would have sold them too.

Check the debts here:
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 24, 2015, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

No central bank is hoarding it except from the BRICS. The others couldnt care a shit about gold and they are already working on their next ponzi schemes, the SDR instruments issued by the IMF.

Okay, could you please post a time chart proving your point which shows time dynamics of gold reserves of the first 4 top gold holders (a hint, these are most developed Western countries)...

GreenStox

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

No central bank is hoarding it except from the BRICS. The others couldnt care a shit about gold and they are already working on their next ponzi schemes, the SDR instruments issued by the IMF.

They are probably hoarding that, not gold. Gold could have an uptrend after the certificate ponzi scheme implodes, but still that is only a relativity effect as I told you before, the absolute value of gold hasn't increased in 300 years, infact it decreased as the absolute value of products decreased (plenty effect & general GDP growth).

So the only reason the relative value Gold could go up in the next years if the gold derivative ponzi implodes, is because the other currencies are toilet paper. But the absolute value of Gold won't go up.

In fact it has a long term downtrend, as it's going out of trend, a few electronic pieces here and there and a few jewelry but other than that, nobody is holding gold bars at home, and i`m sure they wont do it later too.

So for a short term speculation gold is good, but i would not hold my wealth for 20 years in it.

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Quote from: neurotypical on April 23, 2015, 05:47:34 PM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

Gold is not the best money out there yet, feature-wise Bitcoin smokes it out of the water. The only superiority of Gold above BTC is Gold is a part of human culture ar something valuable. From the ancient times to the modern times with all these dumb rappers flauting their "gold chains". That's Gold's strong point, it's network effect basically. But that is subject to change overtime.

If Bitcoin is better, why central banks aren't hoarding it? Are they fools or what? If Bitcoin is better than gold, how exactly is it better than a myriad of other cryptocoins?

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Quote from: lexuz on April 23, 2015, 08:01:20 PM

I guess Gold is stable price and good for investment

Stable price means you won't earn much. If 5% a year is good for you, be my guest.

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I guess Gold is stable price and good for investment

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 03:17:31 PM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 02:53:12 PM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 02:06:05 PM

However i was talking about western central banks, there guys are really broke, probably hold 1-2% or even less in gold, and the debt is perpetually growing. I`m not even sure why they even hold gold at all when their debt is by orders of magnitude larger.

Germany's Bundesbank is not one of the Western central banks, I guess? What about the Fed then, which has around 6,000 tonnes of gold held at its NY vaults? Italy and France come after the USA and Germany in total gold reserves. Still wanna talk about Western central banks void of gold?

Nominal value doesnt matter when we also got quadrillions of debt.

See the debt/gold reserve ratio and then come back again, you will see the gold reserve compared to the world debt or that regions debt is insignificant.

That 6000 tonnes of gold cant even pay 3 months of USA debt interest, let alone the entire debt lol. Cheesy

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

Gold is not the best money out there yet, feature-wise Bitcoin smokes it out of the water. The only superiority of Gold above BTC is Gold is a part of human culture ar something valuable. From the ancient times to the modern times with all these dumb rappers flauting their "gold chains". That's Gold's strong point, it's network effect basically. But that is subject to change overtime.

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 03:17:31 PM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 02:53:12 PM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 02:06:05 PM

However i was talking about western central banks, there guys are really broke, probably hold 1-2% or even less in gold, and the debt is perpetually growing. I`m not even sure why they even hold gold at all when their debt is by orders of magnitude larger.

Germany's Bundesbank is not one of the Western central banks, I guess? What about the Fed then, which has around 6,000 tonnes of gold held at its NY vaults? Italy and France come after the USA and Germany in total gold reserves. Still wanna talk about Western central banks void of gold?

Nominal value doesnt matter when we also got quadrillions of debt.

See the debt/gold reserve ratio and then come back again, you will see the gold reserve compared to the world debt or that regions debt is insignificant.

That 6000 tonnes of gold cant even pay 3 months of USA debt interest, let alone the entire debt lol. Cheesy

It is no good trying to switch to a different theme. Gold is money, and, as a matter of fact, it is the best money out there yet (whatever they might say to the contrary). That's why central banks all over the world (including the ones of the most developed countries) are hoarding it...

GreenStox

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 02:53:12 PM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 02:06:05 PM

However i was talking about western central banks, there guys are really broke, probably hold 1-2% or even less in gold, and the debt is perpetually growing. I`m not even sure why they even hold gold at all when their debt is by orders of magnitude larger.

Germany's Bundesbank is not one of the Western central banks, I guess? What about the Fed then, which has around 6,000 tonnes of gold held at its NY vaults? Italy and France come after the USA and Germany in total gold reserves. Still wanna talk about Western central banks void of gold?

Nominal value doesnt matter when we also got quadrillions of debt.

See the debt/gold reserve ratio and then come back again, you will see the gold reserve compared to the world debt or that regions debt is insignificant.

That 6000 tonnes of gold cant even pay 3 months of USA debt interest, let alone the entire debt lol. Cheesy

deisik

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 02:06:05 PM

However i was talking about western central banks, there guys are really broke, probably hold 1-2% or even less in gold, and the debt is perpetually growing. I`m not even sure why they even hold gold at all when their debt is by orders of magnitude larger.

Germany's Bundesbank is not one of the Western central banks, I guess? What about the Fed then, which has around 6,000 tonnes of gold held at its NY vaults? Italy and France come after the USA and Germany in total gold reserves. Still wanna talk about Western central banks void of gold?

GreenStox

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 09:29:04 AM

You'd actually better investigate into this matter yourself. Bundesbank has been successfully retrieving its gold from Paris and New York vaults recently:

I havent been in the loop with the gold market as i dont trade it now, but good for them then.

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 09:29:04 AM

China and India have long been net buyers of gold, and now Russia has started buying gold too. Surely not something that anyone would call as "central banks nowadays hardly having any gold"...

Yes i know about that too, australia and new zealand their main exporter. I knew about china for a long time, but i also know that those numbers are underestimated. Some conspiracy theories say that china has way more gold then it recognizes as it's imported inside secretely by private entities on behalf of the government.

Also including the fact that the gold certificated and other gold ponzi schemes hold the gold price artificially low, as there are 1000x more of them then gold in the world, gold can easily go up soon.

However i was talking about western central banks, there guys are really broke, probably hold 1-2% or even less in gold, and the debt is perpetually growing. I`m not even sure why they even hold gold at all when their debt is by orders of magnitude larger.

The gold standard was set to make the gold a collateral for those loans and pay off the entire debt , but now as the debt is 10000x larger its really useless.

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 07:13:25 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 06:40:24 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 06:21:32 AM

However they don't need gold. Central banks nowadays hardly have any gold (in the western world atleast) and they dont really want people to reuse gold again, so they will most likely push for the digital version of it.

By this you confirm that you know next to nothing about the issue in question (and, as I can guess, about gold in general). I can only suggest that you investigate the matter a little deeper (and especially regarding central banks, and the ones in the western world in particular)...

You may want to start with the German Bundesbank (this is a hint)

China is buying gold secretly? The Bundesbank stores all his gold with the USA which refuses to pay them and will pay it in the next 11 years...

You'd actually better investigate into this matter yourself. Bundesbank has been successfully retrieving its gold from Paris and New York vaults recently:

Quote

The Bundesbank successfully continued and further stepped up its transfers of gold last year. In 2014, 120 tonnes of gold were transferred to Frankfurt am Main from storage locations abroad: 35 tonnes from Paris and 85 tonnes from New York. "Implementation of our new gold storage plan is proceeding smoothly. Operations are running very much according to schedule," said Carl-Ludwig Thiele, Member of the Executive Board of the Deutsche Bundesbank.

China and India have long been net buyers of gold, and now Russia has started buying gold too. Surely not something that anyone would call as "central banks nowadays hardly having any gold"...

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 06:40:24 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 06:21:32 AM

However they don't need gold. Central banks nowadays hardly have any gold (in the western world atleast) and they dont really want people to reuse gold again, so they will most likely push for the digital version of it.

By this you confirm that you know next to nothing about the issue in question (and, as I can guess, about gold in general). I can only suggest that you investigate the matter a little deeper (and especially regarding central banks, and the ones in the western world in particular)...

You may want to start with the German Bundesbank (this is a hint)

China is buying gold secretly? The Bundesbank stores all his gold with the USA which refuses to pay them and will pay it in the next 11 years...

I know about those, but you dont understand me. They will just use gold as a perception asset, as they got nothing better, but if you look at the charts then you will see that the real price of gold has been the same for atleast 300 years, and no increase in it.

Now it increased relative to fiat, because the fiat is a toilet paper that is sinking in the toilet, but the purchasing power of gold havent.

This is a good sign that the long term trend for gold is going down and people are losing confidence in it.

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 06:21:32 AM

However they don't need gold. Central banks nowadays hardly have any gold (in the western world atleast) and they dont really want people to reuse gold again, so they will most likely push for the digital version of it.

By this you confirm that you know next to nothing about the issue in question (and, as I can guess, about gold in general). I can only suggest that you investigate the matter a little deeper (and especially regarding central banks, and the ones in the western world in particular)...

You may want to start with the German Bundesbank (this is a hint)

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 05:57:44 AM

I'm curious whether it is really so hard to understand (my point)? No one is going to go just after you personally if government decides to ban bitcoin. If it is outlawed in earnest with real punishment up to, say, 10 years in prison (as had been the case with bullion gold in the USA), it means that someone (and, in fact, most bitcoin holders) will get caught eventually. But even before that people will shy from bitcoin (you guess what happens to bitcoin thereby), while to ban gold (including jewelery) would mean that virtually everyone should be stripped of gold...

Needless to say, the improbable ban of gold of this scale will most certainly cause social unrest we haven't seen for long and would be suicidal for any government (including dictatorship)

Well i dont think an allout ban on bitcoin wil happen because the thing is open source, anyone can remake it very easily.

You will need 10 new agencies to be created to monitor "illegal bitcoin holders" which neither the governments have money for, nor they are willing to do (atleast for the moment).

Also they wont ban it because many big banks are interested in it, and these banks control the governments to, by banning it, they lose their core interests. Bankers also knwo that the game is about to go out, so they will just quickly switch to the new paradigm, so that it would look like our saviours that promote bitcoin just to save their asses, otherwise the angry mobs would hate them.

So as I see a bankster push for bitcoin acceptance and technology, they wont ban it. Instead they will regulate it, and tax it, and try to drive out competition, once the big bank crypto currencies will be ready.

I dont know who would buy GoldmanSachsCoin , but the fact is that both megabanks and governments need crypto currencies.

However they don't need gold. Central banks nowadays hardly have any gold (in the western world atleast) and they dont really want people to reuse gold again, so they will most likely push for the digital version of it.

I think gold is outdated, i cannot see people for 100 from now in flying saucers holding gold bars in their rusty gold chest when by then they could transfer digital money with their thoughts

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 04:44:23 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:31:27 AM

You still look at the issue from the wrong angle, i.e. about what is more difficult (easier) to hide. This is a wrong perception. As long as they can get you (and if it comes to that), there will be not much difference between gold and bitcoin. And you seem to forget that bitcoin can be traced through the blockchain after all...

This has been discussed a million times already. If they want to track you down with all your bitcoins, they will in the end. And they won't even need your friends

Again disagree, mixers do a very good job and unless they corrupt every single mixer, (especially since they dont even hold logs) its virtually impossible to trace bitcoins.

Now thats probably the same with gold too (unless you leave fingerprint on the gold or DNA).

So the only issue is hiding it, if there is someone who wants to steal it so hard from you (ex: shady guys want satoshi's bitcoins)

I'm curious whether it is really so hard to understand (my point)? No one is going to go just after you personally if government decides to ban bitcoin. If it is outlawed in earnest with real punishment up to, say, 10 years in prison (as had been the case with bullion gold in the USA), it means that someone (and, in fact, most bitcoin holders) will get caught eventually. But even before that people will shy from bitcoin (you guess what happens to bitcoin thereby), while to ban gold (including jewelery) would mean that virtually everyone should be stripped of gold...

Needless to say, the improbable ban of gold of this scale will most certainly cause social unrest we haven't seen for long and would be suicidal for any government (including dictatorship)

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:31:27 AM

You still look at the issue from the wrong angle, i.e. about what is more difficult (easier) to hide. This is a wrong perception. As long as they can get you (and if it comes to that), there will be not much difference between gold and bitcoin. And you seem to forget that bitcoin can be traced through the blockchain after all...

This has been discussed a million times already. If they want to track you down with all your bitcoins, they will in the end. And they won't even need your friends

Again disagree, mixers do a very good job and unless they corrupt every single mixer, (especially since they dont even hold logs) its virtually impossible to trace bitcoins.

Now thats probably the same with gold too (unless you leave fingerprint on the gold or DNA).

So the only issue is hiding it, if there is someone who wants to steal it so hard from you (ex: shady guys want satoshi's bitcoins)

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 03:16:27 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:11:53 AM

There hadn't been bitcoin back then

Don't know about gold being outlawed in communist countries (just don't know), but in the USA only possession of gold bullion, coins and certificates had been made illegal. Gold jewelery wasn't banned. And, if remember correctly, in the USA you could have been sentenced to 10 years in prison for holding illegal gold, so, was it tyranny?

Yes it was tyrrany, but gold is still a harder to hide wealth type. Everything you say here about bitcoin, is true for gold too, and its also worse.

Bitcoin can be hidden on a USB stick planted in your nearby forest, if nobody knows about that, then obviously its well hidden, and even if they find it, if its encrypted then nobody can access it.

Try hiding a chest of gold... all those ultrasound and magnetic field analyzers can easily detect any metal. I`m sure the military has got sophisticated detectors that can detect any gold chest barried in a forest.

You still look at the issue from the wrong angle, i.e. about what is more difficult (easier) to hide. This is a wrong perception. As long as they can get you (and if it comes to that), there will be not much difference between gold and bitcoin. And you seem to forget that bitcoin can be traced through the blockchain after all...

This has been discussed a million times already. If they want to track you down with all your bitcoins, they will in the end. And they won't even need your friends

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Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 03:11:53 AM

There hadn't been bitcoin back then

Don't know about gold being outlawed in communist countries (just don't know), but in the USA only possession of gold bullion, coins and certificates had been made illegal. Gold jewelery wasn't banned. And, if remember correctly, in the USA you could have been sentenced to 10 years in prison for holding illegal gold, so, was it tyranny?

Yes it was tyrrany, but gold is still a harder to hide wealth type. Everything you say here about bitcoin, is true for gold too, and its also worse.

Bitcoin can be hidden on a USB stick planted in your nearby forest, if nobody knows about that, then obviously its well hidden, and even if they find it, if its encrypted then nobody can access it.

Try hiding a chest of gold... all those ultrasound and magnetic field analyzers can easily detect any metal. I`m sure the military has got sophisticated detectors that can detect any gold chest barried in a forest.

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Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 03:06:06 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 23, 2015, 02:44:51 AM

Quote from: GreenStox on April 23, 2015, 02:34:18 AM

Quote from: deisik on April 22, 2015, 08:44:42 AM

If you think deeper about this, you will inevitably agree that it takes just "1 court order on some bogus charge" to put you in jail or even worse than that. Will 10 multisig wallets help you anyhow in this case? The weakest link is the man himself, not gold or bitcoin...

It wont save you from jail but it will save your wealth. If you are a victim of a political thing in a tyranical country then they can take all your wealth.

99% of populace (save for some die-hards maybe) will eagerly tell all their multisig wallets once they get into a serious scrape. Also, what will your wealth do for you if you are in jail and will probably spend there the rest of your life? And the chances for bitcoin to be outlawed are much higher than for gold...

The point of the multisig is that multiple people sign the transactions. Say you have 6 friends all around the world that you trust, so you will need 3 out of 6 to make a transaction, pretty good way to store wealth.

Also let's be serious, life inprisonment for holding bitcoins? Thats bullshit tyrrany, if people put up with that, then they really deserve it.

And actually chances are much higher for gold to be outlawed, it was outlawed many times already in USA and communist countries. Bitcoin hasnt.

There hadn't been bitcoin back then

Don't know about gold being outlawed in communist countries (just don't know), but in the USA only possession of gold bullions, coins and certificates had been made illegal. Gold jewelery wasn't banned (even in communist countries). And, if I remember correctly, in the USA you could have been sentenced to 10 years in prison for just holding illegal gold. So, was it tyranny, or am I not being serious (about punishment)?

Topic: Bitcoin or gold? - page 561. (Read 984460 times)