Bitcoin usage and misaligned expectations - page 3.

figmentofmyass

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1483

Quote from: Searing on June 23, 2019, 05:08:46 PM

The catch is with Libra, the fast transactions and that speed advantage and the user base of Facebook will make for interesting times indeed!

I myself, am wondering, IF, BTC will continue to be a 'store of value' under such a shadow. I mean how hard can it be for Facebook to say, keep so much Libra

and you will get a % interest paid out on Libra and/or staking? The $10 million dollar node setup for Libra (see article link below) means ALL transaction fees, etc goes to the operator of the $10 million dollar nodes. Like Visa and Mastercard.

well that was the point. facebook isn't creating libra in the interests of users and libra isn't decentralized. it's a centralized ploy so a few huge financial service companies can tap the global remittance market and reap profits.

Quote from: Searing on June 23, 2019, 05:08:46 PM

So, we knew this was coming, but I wonder if anyone in the crypto world and/or the bitcoin devs or altcoin devs (of any flavor) really can compete and/or compensate promoting BTC or whatever against this juggernaut?

i see no competition. libra is just a centralized stablecoin. it's tether 2.0. it doesn't compete with bitcoin's store-of-value, censorship resistance, speculative investment, etc use cases.

Searing

copper member

Activity: 2898

Merit: 1464

Clueless!

Quote from: sngwinner on June 23, 2019, 08:30:24 AM

This reason alone cannot be enough to say btc has failed. Sometimes we wish BTC is more scalable but that does not mean we should despise all the other functions and say byc is a failure.
Moreover, failure to me is individually defined and so such individuals can keep on riding on the fact that BTC is a failure and refuse to jump in

This article's take on Libra, the Facebook coin is kinda bleak. This is just the first step in the war against, open protocol electronic currency.

The catch is with Libra, the fast transactions and that speed advantage and the user base of Facebook will make for interesting times indeed!

I myself, am wondering, IF, BTC will continue to be a 'store of value' under such a shadow. I mean how hard can it be for Facebook to say, keep so much Libra

and you will get a % interest paid out on Libra and/or staking? The $10 million dollar node setup for Libra (see article link below) means ALL transaction fees, etc goes to the operator of the

$10 million dollar nodes. Like Visa and Mastercard.

So, we knew this was coming, but I wonder if anyone in the crypto world and/or the bitcoin devs or altcoin devs (of any flavor) really can compete and/or compensate

promoting BTC or whatever against this juggernaut?

https://hackernoon.com/libra-a-cyberpunk-nightmare-in-the-midst-of-crypto-spring-5543b6f6e34b

squatter

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1196

STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:33:55 AM

Pokemon Go reached 1 billion downloads in two years, Facebook, which is only 4 years older than Bitcoin, has 2.4 billion active users, Twitter, which is the same age as Bitcoin has 330 million active users.

Those platforms are free. Bitcoin has financial barriers to entry -- that should be expected to hamper its adoption by orders of magnitude vs. free platforms. Those platforms also didn't exactly need to bootstrap a network from scratch like Bitcoin. They were built on exponentially growing technology trends (smartphone and social media adoption) that tapped into already existing gamers and social media users.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:33:55 AM

Bitcoin needs to have exponential user growth to get on par with those mass products, which it actually might do at some point.

The adoption rate of any given technology only goes vertical one time. It hasn't happened yet for Bitcoin, but looking at the ongoing trend and changing popular attitudes over the past ten years, I'd say we're approaching that point.

miropp

full member

Activity: 810

Merit: 101

I don't think there's a big problem with bitcoin. Perhaps when that is in the future it will become a stable currency and its transaction fees will not be so large. We don't know what he's capable of or what the future holds.

superscommessebitcoin

hero member

Activity: 1176

Merit: 500

Negative reviews will always be. And they will certainly find something to argue their opinion. Those nuances that are not considered critical for many, for the haters of crypto will be very significant. Everyone chooses for himself what he likes crypto for or not to love. Just stick to your opinion and do not pay attention to those who want to impose their own.

sngwinner

full member

Activity: 432

Merit: 100

This reason alone cannot be enough to say btc has failed. Sometimes we wish btc is more scalable but that does not mean we should despise all the other functions and say byc is a failure.
Moreover, failure to me is individually defined and so such individuals can keep on riding on the fact that btc is a failure and refuse to jump in

partysaurus

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 251

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2019, 01:42:24 AM

I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?

bitcoin as a store of value is great, like art and stocks , but i would not use it for transactions since its not very fast compare to the compitition,

maldini

sr. member

Activity: 952

Merit: 308

Quote from: TastyChillySauce00 on June 23, 2019, 05:57:35 AM

Quote from: MakeMoneyBtc on May 30, 2019, 12:48:54 PM

If we just think at the fact that bitcoin can be used to send transactions worldwide and almost instant then this fees wouldn't seem so high. Think about what fees do banks charge for a worldwide transfer. Most of them around $15-$25 but it could go up to $50. Besides that you also have to wait at least a few hours in best case because usually it takes a few days to be processed. Now compare that with bitcoin. It's enough to pay a maximum of $5 in fees and your transactions will surely receive 6+ confirmations in less than 2-3 hours. And this is just one advantage because there are others more.

Paid $3 for a transaction recently and confirmed within <10 minutes although the fee varies depending on how crowded the blockchain but it's quite affordable if we take into an account the fact that the fee will stays that much if the transaction size is not too big regardless the amount of money we send. With bank, well be ready to be charged so much.

That's right, I think at a cost of no more than $ 5 with the number of transactions being already cheap enough. I also don't think that bitcoin will replace fiat, so you can still buy coffee with fiat. Bitcoin was not created to replace any currency, bitcoin was created as a p2p transaction innovation.

joseafonso123az

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Bitcoin can only misalign expectations because it is not stable yet. And this is also why the price keeps fluctuating, but that doesnt mean that Bitcoin usage is not good. It is something that exists now for a long time, it is restoring power of price slowly, while people keep talking and being afraid of going to cryptos. The transaction fees are something that should come down, but it is not that linear becaus this is money, everyone is greedy and wants to earn something. But if BTC get stable, that would also reduce.

Kakmakr

legendary

Activity: 3458

Merit: 1960

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Quote from: TastyChillySauce00 on June 23, 2019, 05:57:35 AM

Quote from: MakeMoneyBtc on May 30, 2019, 12:48:54 PM

If we just think at the fact that bitcoin can be used to send transactions worldwide and almost instant then this fees wouldn't seem so high. Think about what fees do banks charge for a worldwide transfer. Most of them around $15-$25 but it could go up to $50. Besides that you also have to wait at least a few hours in best case because usually it takes a few days to be processed. Now compare that with bitcoin. It's enough to pay a maximum of $5 in fees and your transactions will surely receive 6+ confirmations in less than 2-3 hours. And this is just one advantage because there are others more.

Paid $3 for a transaction recently and confirmed within <10 minutes although the fee varies depending on how crowded the blockchain but it's quite affordable if we take into an account the fact that the fee will stays that much if the transaction size is not too big regardless the amount of money we send. With bank, well be ready to be charged so much.

What Bank are you using that are charging $3 per transaction? Roll Eyes

Just remember that $3 per transaction might not sound like a lot of money to people living in 3rd world countries, but $3 per transaction for people in 3rd world countries are VERY expensive. Roll Eyes

A lot of Banks give you X amount of transactions for FREE and once those are completed you start paying for individual fees. In my opinion most Bitcoin transactions must cost between $0.25 to $0.50 to be affordable for most people and below $0.10 for micro transactions. Wink

TastyChillySauce00

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 1028

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Quote from: MakeMoneyBtc on May 30, 2019, 12:48:54 PM

If we just think at the fact that bitcoin can be used to send transactions worldwide and almost instant then this fees wouldn't seem so high. Think about what fees do banks charge for a worldwide transfer. Most of them around $15-$25 but it could go up to $50. Besides that you also have to wait at least a few hours in best case because usually it takes a few days to be processed. Now compare that with bitcoin. It's enough to pay a maximum of $5 in fees and your transactions will surely receive 6+ confirmations in less than 2-3 hours. And this is just one advantage because there are others more.

Paid $3 for a transaction recently and confirmed within <10 minutes although the fee varies depending on how crowded the blockchain but it's quite affordable if we take into an account the fact that the fee will stays that much if the transaction size is not too big regardless the amount of money we send. With bank, well be ready to be charged so much.

hatshepsut93

legendary

Activity: 2954

Merit: 2145

Quote from: figmentofmyass on June 23, 2019, 04:18:22 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:48:16 AM

I don't think that Bitcoin should be considered a failure just because fees are high, but what is worrying me is that userbase grows so slowly, that speculation/hodling is still the biggest use-case.

how fast would you expect the userbase to grow? by some metrics, it doubled in the first 3 quarters of 2018. and that's during a bear market.

Pokemon Go reached 1 billion downloads in two years, Facebook, which is only 4 years older than Bitcoin, has 2.4 billion active users, Twitter, which is the same age as Bitcoin has 330 million active users.
Bitcoin needs to have exponential user growth to get on par with those mass products, which it actually might do at some point.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on June 23, 2019, 04:18:22 AM

speculation/hodling is inevitable given bitcoin's scarcity and potential utility. people are gonna hoard bitcoin the same way they hoard gold. there's no way around it.

I don't have anything against speculation and hoarding, but the "money" use-case, which is the goal of Bitcoin, is in minority compared to speculation, which is not a good thing.

figmentofmyass

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1483

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:48:16 AM

I don't think that Bitcoin should be considered a failure just because fees are high, but what is worrying me is that userbase grows so slowly, that speculation/hodling is still the biggest use-case.

how fast would you expect the userbase to grow? by some metrics, it doubled in the first 3 quarters of 2018. and that's during a bear market.

speculation/hodling is inevitable given bitcoin's scarcity and potential utility. people are gonna hoard bitcoin the same way they hoard gold. there's no way around it.

hatshepsut93

legendary

Activity: 2954

Merit: 2145

I don't think that Bitcoin should be considered a failure just because fees are high, but what is worrying me is that userbase grows so slowly, that speculation/hodling is still the biggest use-case. We like to talk how Bitcoin is going to be a store of value, but people don't even use it as store of value in any significant volume, everyone wants to just get rich quick, but to maintain growth we need strong fundamentals, and while we have good theoretical fundamentals, they for some reason don't translate well into userbase growth.

CryptoCraze11

member

Activity: 142

Merit: 11

Quote from: Wind_FURY on May 30, 2019, 01:42:24 AM

I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?

A piece of code that is currently trading at 10,000 USD is surely not a failure. I agree with members saying here that we have to wait for a while for BTC adoption rate to go up and with that surely its fee will also go down.

th3nolo

hero member

Activity: 1232

Merit: 669

Quote from: squatter on May 31, 2019, 03:56:08 PM

Quote from: jseverson on May 30, 2019, 09:59:01 PM

I guess everything does make sense though, considering the fact that we're looking into off-chain solutions for scaling. I just thought that the game plan was always to keep on-chain transactions relatively cheap (i.e. still very viable for people who prefer on-chain transactions), though that does defeat the purpose of trying to move bulk of the transactions off-chain.

Quote from: pooya87 on May 30, 2019, 11:18:11 PM

as for second layer, in order for it to work the underlying layer (meaning the on-chain transactions) need to be cheap otherwise nobody can open up a channel if it costs $50 to do so.

What constitutes "cheap"?

Once we establish that, I guess we can talk about the economic implications and how it affects the design. I strongly believe that the sustainability of the system has to be the top priority, much more important than cheap fees.

All manner of economic and scaling designs should be tested. If cheap fees (with regard to "the masses") are truly important, there's an abundance of Bitcoin copycats with bigger blocks and cheaper fees. I suspect that Bitcoin's value stems from elsewhere than cheap fees though, and that there will be strong demand for Bitcoin's block space even at orders of magnitude higher fees than seen today.

It's hard to talk about the economics of the system when everybody is focusing on cheap fees or looking at the price.

I agree with you, sustainability is the top matter on Bitcoin, just look what happened with this bear market it lasted only 522 days and a lot of retailers stopped mining bitcoin.

That could lead to losing our byzantine fault tolerance, thank god that didn't happen, but what could happen in a different scenario with less reward per block?

Eraldo Coil

member

Activity: 448

Merit: 10

They probably didn't do the right thing in cryptocurrency world that is why they kept on saying that it is a failure and having some expectations. I don't see a bitcoin as a failure because there is a great technology behind it and you can profit a lot from it if you just do the right thing to earn profit. By not having enough research, you can also lose a lot of money.

TheUltraElite

legendary

Activity: 2898

Merit: 1253

Call your grandparents and tell them you love them

Quote from: Upgate on June 22, 2019, 10:20:14 PM

If you can make huge profit, store up assets, transact money online and been your own boss. What other success do you want to get with bitcoin? No more expectations from bitcoin because it has been providing and giving me all I ever needed.

At first you have to make that huge profit. The problem with this generation is that they spend too much time thinking on what they will do when they become rich and in doing so waste time which they could have used to become successful. We talk about bitcoin governance forgetting the basics of how crypto works. Dreaming of huge volumes of money being made in your name is possible but its not something that will happen with just buying some bitcoin.

Whales made money because they had money already at hand, fiat indeed. They used it to manipulate markets and then make money from them.

TIDOVEE

sr. member

Activity: 1246

Merit: 255

i will agree that bitcoin has failed if everyone now reject it especially for another successful coin. but by now i believe it is the users that has failed in their appropriate use of it.if you say bitcoin has fail,OK which coin has succeeded? Huh

blue_nexus15

member

Activity: 532

Merit: 10

█ J A X N E T W O R K █

A misconception may hinder the desire to use and find that bitcoin is really special. The regulations are increasingly expanding, amplifying models of payment since there is bitcoin. Many places accept bitcoin and it confirms the superior advantages of bitcoin / crypto for the future. And it's amazing, you'll realize when there's bitcoin, life becomes more sparkling and attractive.

Topic: Bitcoin usage and misaligned expectations - page 3. (Read 1159 times)