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Topic: Bitcoin usage and misaligned expectations - page 6. (Read 1159 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'


pools DO NOT need to have blocksizes stiffled/cut short to play around with supply and demand. they can simply raise or lower the price of admission to a block. a block does not need to be full or empty to pass any test.

Nobody cares about the interests of pools. I surely don't. The reason I care about maintaining adequate miner incentives is not for the benefit of pools. It's so that confirmations remain reliable and Bitcoin is able to sustain Byzantine fault tolerance. In other words, it's to ensure "honest mining."

I have no interest in letting miners decide the block size. They can easily sacrifice the long term health of the system for their own short term gains. This is why we have consensus rules -- to ensure they have no ability to do that.

If block size limit is larger than transaction demand, fees will always tend towards zero. That's very simple economics. Since the block subsidy is already heading towards zero, that would mean block rewards will tend towards zero. That's completely unsustainable in a system that is designed to rely on rationally incentivized "honest mining." You can't remove the incentive and expect miners to stay honest.
full member
Activity: 938
Merit: 105
I thought.  that's a small problem.  Coffee does not determine BTC failure.  the reality is BTC can recover from bearish.  and from 2009 until now BTC still survives and has given large profits to many people.  and in my opinion, the development of BTC until today is part of the success of BTC.
That's why people would give their huge trust into Bitcoin rather than in altcoins even ETH. We know it potentiality to lead the market and still, it proven so many times. If you are a wise investors, better to give more in bitcoins cause it surely making more pumps especially when there is a huge increase of users and cause high demand in the market.
legendary
Activity: 4214
Merit: 4458


pools DO NOT need to have blocksizes stiffled/cut short to play around with supply and demand. they can simply raise or lower the price of admission to a block. a block does not need to be full or empty to pass any test.


imagine a public transport bus of 30 seats. imagine to pay the driver, diesel, etc was $112.50 for a 10 minute journey whethr the bus was full or empty. without any government grants or separate reward. a full bus would need to charge $3.75 a journey per passenger.

now if there were more people getting onboard. do you think a bus company would rip out 15 seats and charge bus passengers $7.50...
OR just charge more because there was more demand
OR make the busbigger to allow 60 seats and only charge $1.88

now if there were less people getting onboard because they chose to use the LN public train. do you think a bus company would rip out 15 seats and charge bus passengers $7.50...  OR make the busbigger to allow 60 seats and only charge $1.88 to incentivise people back to using the bus at cheaper rate

poos dont need to keep blocks low or decrease blocksizes to force people to pay more. pools can just reject users that dont pay an amount a pool sets as minfee no matter the size or occupancy of a block is.
sr. member
Activity: 1330
Merit: 256
I thought.  that's a small problem.  Coffee does not determine BTC failure.  the reality is BTC can recover from bearish.  and from 2009 until now BTC still survives and has given large profits to many people.  and in my opinion, the development of BTC until today is part of the success of BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 269
I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?
No, it isn’t. Which transaction has zero fee then and now by the way? You take money from ATM, is it free? You pay something with visa card, it is free of service? You wire money from one end to another, is it free? It isn’t a failure, people who know the real advantages of bitcoin will not be convinced it is a failure.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
Maybe we could afford for it to be a selling point years ago when transaction demand was very low and the block subsidy was very high. Cheap transactions didn't hurt miner incentives when block rewards were 50+ BTC. That's changing. In 5 years, the block subsidy will only be ~ 3 BTC. Shouldn't fee revenue be rising to compensate miners? How long can miners be expected to subsidize users with cheap fees?

I think Satoshi was naive with some of his economic assumptions.

I probably don't know enough about the subject, so please be patient with me.

I'm not defending Satoshi, but maybe he thought that BTC's rising value (it is deflationary by design after all) would offset the loss in mining revenue of the decreasing block rewards? I mean, I'd bet that 3 BTC 5 years from now would still be a lot more valuable than 50 BTC from a few years ago. I understand that mining costs are also increasing, but isn't that what the difficulty adjustment is for? It ensures that there will always be financial incentive for miners, regardless of transaction fee revenue.

Fee revenue is essential if there is a hard cap on supply. That was the whole design -- subsidize mining early on to bootstrap the network, then eventually fees will replace the subsidy. Otherwise, network security is utterly dependent on an ever-increasing price, since speculation would be required to incentivize miners. We can't simply assume that price will keep rising forever and that that is a sustainable incentive for miners. We have to consider a future where the design is more self-sufficient.

Consider a context where price is crashing for years and years rather than rising. Difficulty will adjust downwards but if block rewards are also steadily dropping (due to lack of fee revenue), we could see downspiraling hash rates to the point where the network becomes insecure and loses its Byzantine fault tolerance.

I concede that transaction fees will have to rise, and that micro transactions won't be plausible at some point anymore (nor would it indicate failure). My concern is that it still has to be cheap enough as to not be detrimental to adoption. My views may be a little too naive though (like how Satoshi's may be lol), so I would appreciate any insight.

This is all a big experiment. The whole idea of "cryptoeconomics" is brand new, and the whole field of economics isn't scientific. We all have different opinions about how things might work out in the future.

My primary emphasis is on the mining incentive, because it's the supreme building block of the entire system. From my perspective, we can't plan on never-ending price increases nor exponentially increasing adoption. But we can ensure that strong mining incentives remain -- at least relative to the system's native currency, if not fiat currency value -- by ensuring that increased transaction demand nets higher block rewards.

If we let mining incentives bleed away to nothing by increasing block sizes -- while still retaining a hard cap on supply -- I don't see a bright future for Bitcoin.
member
Activity: 280
Merit: 14
Any one with such thoughts on bitcoin future is paying less attention to the bigger picture of bitcoin. Bitcoin is uses for transaction process and also to purchase goods and services yes that's very correct. But bitcoin is also an investment opportunity, bitcoin is also a medium to save funds with out facing the daily challenges of banking service. I think the future of bitcoin begins when government starts accepting bitcoin globally
member
Activity: 490
Merit: 10
Not at all! Bitcoin is the most successful project that has existed without management, advertisement, auditors or cooperate bureaucracy yet it is standing in par with Big firms like paypal, skrill or amazon in terms of capitalization. What success again do we need to see from bitcoin usage. Sending and receiving money in a brink of an eye without financial intermediaries is more than success.
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
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I don't think it's a failure if Bitcoin is used for big transactions

The success is not related to the size of the transactions (no matter if it's in $, in coins, or in inputs/outputs/bytes), instead, the number of transactions can be considered quite a good measurement.
Of course, many transactions are done by arbitrage bots. Still by the number of voices crying when the fees go up, I'd consider Bitcoin rather successful  Grin
If the coin is not mature, too many transactions can translate into unreasonably high tx fees. Well, success and maturity are not the same thing. Success could force maturity though.

the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?

There are plenty of coins with near zero fees, just because they are not used and worth nearly nothing. Is that success? No.
So I'd say we should not relate to the standards some trolls try to impose.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1389
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I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?
I don't think it's a failure if Bitcoin is used for big transactions, but while at good times it seems like Bitcoin might be appropriate in everyday life, once the prices are getting up and more people actually use the network, you can see how it gets different very fast. When I sell BTC for fiat to actually use it in real life, I usually pay around 2% fees. Today I sold 0.02 BTC and paid 0.0008+ in transaction fees. Paying more than $7 to send $175 seems to be an overkill. And reminds of the banking fees, if not higher, actually. And this is a problem that will only get worse with time since the more people use blockchain, the more time it takes for transactions to be confirmed and the more it costs.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1352
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It failed on some aspects but succeded in most parts. Bitcoin effectively disrupted the financial scene, helped the unbanked gained some footing on the uneven playing field of today's economy, redistribute wealth (kinda) and a transfer of value. We might not be having little to no fees in sending bitcoin here and there, but compared to banks, bitcoin is still faster and cheaper, especially when sending in large amounts from point A to point B.
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 117
If we just think at the fact that bitcoin can be used to send transactions worldwide and almost instant then this fees wouldn't seem so high. Think about what fees do banks charge for a worldwide transfer. Most of them around $15-$25 but it could go up to $50. Besides that you also have to wait at least a few hours in best case because usually it takes a few days to be processed. Now compare that with bitcoin. It's enough to pay a maximum of $5 in fees and your transactions will surely receive 6+ confirmations in less than 2-3 hours. And this is just one advantage because there are others more.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1008
No, no. This is not a failure, but it is more unique to Bitcoin, because it is a digital currency and different from others. I think bitcoin is more suitable for large-scale transactions or digital transactions, but if you pay coffee with bitcoin and want zero costs. Then you can use Nano because this platform hears hearing a zero fee service. Isn't crypto not just bitcoin, so nano is more suitable for that.
sr. member
Activity: 1722
Merit: 309
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I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?

They should give us an example of any technology where they pay "almost-zero fee" transactions with other payment services out there, before they can say that about Bitcoin. Everything from Diners club to credit cards to PayPal has some kind of fee structure to pay for their expenses to run that system.

The Lightning Network is the closest we will ever come to a "almost-zero fee" transaction scenario, but it is still in it's development stage to sort out some teething problems. Crypto currencies will always need some remuneration or reward system that would need to be funded by someone else to fund the transaction volume on the network.  Tongue

I agree, I guess they just looking some lame reasons to say something bad about bitcoin. Well, whether we like it or not there's always someone who will not be happy with bitcoin's success, as for the exact reason, I don't know. Bitcoin has far more useful to most of us and those non-sense are harmless so long as bitcoin is doing good and the price is up then it'll be good for us, it's a shame to those who judge bitcoin badly.
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 355
I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?

Should we really expect a zero-fee transactions with bitcoin? I think that it is impossible for now because every transaction has to be confirmed and each confirmation carries a cost. However, I think there is already an experiment where transaction is done P2P or from one gadget to another and the wallet is within the gadget...but I am not so sure if this can get popular. As for me, bitcoin is not successful if it is not being used or traded by the people. There is still a long story for bitcoin and I am sure that its history can last a lifetime. Judging the way it is now is not doing it justice as we are only experiencing the tip of the iceberg.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1137
almost all the times when people talk about bitcoin failure they are either blinded by some altcoin advertisement that kept lying to them about their "solutions" that magically has solved every problem that bitcoin may or may not have. or they are just advertising that altcoin themselves because they are bag holding it and want to make profit.

otherwise the rest of us know that bitcoin is not perfect and it has issues but it also has a lot of advantages and good features that nothing else has and so far no altcoin could even come close to bitcoin's usability.
sr. member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 335
If we'll be keen and observant in the movement of Bitcoin, we could notice how things have changed that fast so considering Bitcoin as failure is really being too narrow.
We can't eliminate fees that fast and we could rely success on lowest fees. We should focus on its development and just appreciate how bitcoin works for us these days.
full member
Activity: 742
Merit: 144
I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for "almost-zero fee" coffee transactions. But is it truly a failure?
Bitcoin is not a failure, you can transact big money for just $5 compare to a banking trasactions who requires you to pay for more fees and took almost a week before your transactions done, now tell me who’s a failure? Bitcoin usage is not that high right now, because not all coffee shops accepts bitcoin so we can wait if the adoption will beging in the next years, or in the coming months. Bitcoin will succeed, its ok to fail but we will still achieve our goal in the end.
legendary
Activity: 4214
Merit: 4458
I believe there are some people in the community who are in the standpoint that "Bitcoin isn't successful" unless they can use it for $20 per transaction for only vaulting it up. But is it truly a failure?


the silly thing is those that want expensive fee's go to extremes of stifling bitcoin and then blaming bitcoin for it(pretending bitcoin is AI and it stifled itself). they then go to extremes of thinking those that want regular use of bitcoin want it to buy google adsense at 0.001cent a tx

the even stranger thing is that its not even the pools that want excessive fees right now.
the even stranger thing is that when pools do rely on fee's they can set their min fee without care about blocksize

the real reality is if a tx fee is more than an hourly wage in any country. its automatically pushed that country out from viewing bitcoin as viable
entertaining alternative networks as the solution is not a bitcoin solution. its an altcoin solution
sr. member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 301
I don't know about almost zero, but I feel like cheap fees should still be a priority going forward. Cheaper fees than ones charged by third party payment processors was one of the primary selling points of Bitcoin, and Satoshi even addressed it in the introduction part of the white paper:

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible services.

Maybe we could afford for it to be a selling point years ago when transaction demand was very low and the block subsidy was very high. Cheap transactions didn't hurt miner incentives when block rewards were 50+ BTC. That's changing. In 5 years, the block subsidy will only be ~ 3 BTC. Shouldn't fee revenue be rising to compensate miners? How long can miners be expected to subsidize users with cheap fees?

I think Satoshi was naive with some of his economic assumptions.
I don't think that Satoshi expects things to happen as it is.
Nobody expects this do you even imagine 10 years before that the price would be that high ?
The things that Bitcoin has been through?
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