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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 25. (Read 378980 times)

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
...
considering bitcoin's network effect and decentralization, it is simply too late to highjack it.

Indeed, the protocol being subject to design change would go against the very concept of a decentralized technology and would irrevocably introduce a point of failure precedent.

This is not FED nor ECB meme, to hell with "adjustments" and "quantitative easing".

You two seem to have it all figured out.

A passion for decentralization even led both of you to join the forum around the same time.  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
...
considering bitcoin's network effect and decentralization, it is simply too late to highjack it.

Indeed, the protocol being subject to design change would go against the very concept of a decentralized technology and would irrevocably introduce a point of failure precedent.

This is not FED nor ECB meme, to hell with "adjustments" and "quantitative easing".
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Let's be careful with our arguments here. Nearly everyone supports increasing the block size. Arguing against people who don't support an increase is a straw argument that misses the point. The point, rather, is precisely how increasing the block size ought to be implemented. imho, the most insightful and thoughtful opinion on the matter has come from Dr. Adam Back.
I get the impression that Core will not increase the blocksize, specifically because of "developer consensus".

Aye. Good info. Studying monetary history is a passion of mine, and I can tell you know your history! Cheers!
Thanks, I am glad that you appreciated my discussion about the history of money, putting Bitcoin within this context does shine a light on the profound nature of it all. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Let's be careful with our arguments here. Nearly everyone supports increasing the block size. Arguing against people who don't support an increase is a straw argument that misses the point. The point, rather, is precisely how increasing the block size ought to be implemented. imho, the most insightful and thoughtful opinion on the matter has come from Dr. Adam Back.

nothing currently justify increasing the blocksize, hence all previous attempts miserably failed..

modifying any parameter of the bitcoin protocol is more hazardous than simply leave it as is, with its features.

hardfork is a failure strategy and will only result in some other altcoin.

considering bitcoin's network effect and decentralization, it is simply too late to highjack it.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
Let's be careful with our arguments here. Nearly everyone supports increasing the block size. Arguing against people who don't support an increase is a straw argument that misses the point. The point, rather, is precisely how increasing the block size ought to be implemented. imho, the most insightful and thoughtful opinion on the matter has come from Dr. Adam Back.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
I'd be remiss not to remind everyone, as an aside to this discussion as it pertains to gold and debt and money, that money and currency are not the same thing, that gold is (among other things) that which extinguishes debt, and that bitcoin shares some properties with gold, such as fungibility and scarcity (i.e., cannot be created via debt or other fiat mechanisms; must be mined), as well as other properties that still need to time to gain confidence and acceptance, such as bitcoin's ability to function, much like gold can, as a unit of account and globally as a supranational commodity-currency. Moreover, bitcoin, like gold, is cannot borrowed into existence.
Not all money is currency, but all currency is money. Aristotle defined currency as being durable, portable, fungible and that it should have intrinsic value.

This is why I mentioned the history of money earlier in this thread, since for the majority of known human history we have had commodity money. Which is not based on debt, fiat or money by authority is only a relatively recent development. Bitcoin represents a return to true commodity money, Bitcoin is an asset based currency not a debt based currency like fiat.

One important factor when comparing Bitcoin to gold in terms of its value, is actually its utility, it is this utility that gives Bitcoin the advantage as a store of value compared to gold. After all we can not sprinkle gold dust down a phone line and send it across the world cheaply in a matter of seconds without relying on third parties.

In those days some families whole possessions weren't worth one single gold coin.
I have repeatedly stated that different types of precious metals where used, including silver and bronze. Which poor families could afford, often coins where also divided, this is where the term quarter comes from for example. Currency has been used by most people for the majority of our known history, it is as old as civilization itself.
Aye. Good info. Studying monetary history is a passion of mine, and I can tell you know your history! Cheers!
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Oh theres only one person left lol.. Ive aleady read into this and debated with that person and proved to him or her why bigger blocks are not needed right now but i guess hes back for more.

there is only one person that thinks there is any point posting on topic in this thread Wink
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
If you support Core you are supporting small blocks, unless you believe that Core will raise the blocksize. Even though Jeff Garzik himself no longer believes this is the case.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
I have discussed this with you before, you do seem like one of the more reasonable Core supporters, I would hope that eventually you would also lose faith in Core. Since surely there should also be a limit to your patience.
I'm not sure our definitions of "support" are the same. For me, "supporting" Core means that I'm convinced by their arguments and see their approach as compatible with my own vision. Once this stops being the case, I might stop "supporting" them.

I also think they will increase the limit, one way or another, during 2016. I know you don't "trust" them with this, but I don't care.
Fair enough, I suppose I am not convinced by their arguments and I consider their views to be fundamentally incompatible with my own vision for the future of Bitcoin and the vision that was laid out by the founder Satoshi Nakamoto which i still believe in and think we should follow. I do not think we should "trust" any group or organization with the future of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
If you support Core you are supporting small blocks, unless you believe that Core will raise the blocksize. Even though Jeff Garzik himself no longer believes this is the case.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
I have discussed this with you before, you do seem like one of the more reasonable Core supporters, I would hope that eventually you would also lose faith in Core. Since surely there should also be a limit to your patience.
I'm not sure our definitions of "support" are the same. For me, "supporting" Core means that I'm convinced by their arguments and see their approach as compatible with my own vision. Once this stops being the case, I might stop "supporting" them.

I also think they will increase the limit, one way or another, during 2016. I know you don't "trust" them with this, but I don't care.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Oh theres only one person left lol.. Ive aleady read into this and debated with that person and proved to him or her why bigger blocks are not needed right now but i guess hes back for more.
Stop pretending as if I am the only person that supports this, there are many people that want the blocksize to be increased.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Almost all bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners have stated they want a block size increase.  See the many media articles, BIP 101 letter, and wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Without exaggeration, I have never seen this much disconnect between user wishes and dev outcomes in 20+ years of open source.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/who-is-for-and-against-expanding-the-block-size-reasonably-soon.119/

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-182
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
If you support Core you are supporting small blocks, unless you believe that Core will raise the blocksize. Even though Jeff Garzik himself no longer seems to believe that this is the case.

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
I have discussed this with you before, you do seem like one of the more reasonable Core supporters, I would hope that eventually you would also lose faith in Core. Since surely there should also be a limit to your patience.

legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Oh theres only one person left lol.. Ive aleady read into this and debated with that person and proved to him or her why bigger blocks are not needed right now but i guess hes back for more.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
Cheesy For the record, I'm not smallblockist, whatever you mean by it. Wink
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.

You should try reading more than 6 words at a time. Or has smallblockism extended into text as well?   Grin
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
I find it difficult to comprehend ...
We know that.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?
I find it difficult to comprehend why someone would still support Core. For the same reasons that Jeff Garzik has now clearly stated:

Quote from: Jeff Garzik
An Economic Change Event is a period of market chaos, where large changes to prices and sets of economic actors occurs over a short time period. A Fee Event is a notable Economic Change Event, where a realistic projection forsees higher fee/KB on average, pricing some economic actors (bitcoin projects and businesses) out of the system.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The game theory bidding behavior is different for a mostly-empty resource versus a usually-full resource.  Prices are different.  Profitable business models are different.  Users (the set of economic actors on the network) are different.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Failure to increase block size is not obviously-conservative, it is a conscious choice, electing for one economic state and set of actors and prices over another. Choosing Future Fee Market over Today's Fee Market. It is rational to reason that maintaining TFM is more conservative than enduring an Economic Change Event from TFM to FFM. It is rational to reason that maintaining similar prices and economic actors is less disruptive. Failure to increase block size will lead to a Fee Event sooner rather than later. Failure to plan ahead for a Fee Event will lead to greater market chaos and User pain.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Some Developers wish to accelerate the Fee Event, and a veto can accomplish that. In the current developer dynamics, 1-2 key developers can and very likely would veto any block size increase.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
This is an extreme moral hazard: A few Bitcoin Core committers can veto increase and thereby reshape bitcoin economics, price some businesses out of the system. It is less of a moral hazard to keep the current economics [by raising block size] and not exercise such power.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The current trajectory of no-block-size-increase can lead to short time market chaos, actor chaos, businesses no longer viable. In a $6.6B economy, it is criminal to let the Service undergo an Economic Change event without warning users loudly, months in advance:  "Dear users, ECE has accelerated potential due to developers preferring a transition from TFM to FFM."
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Further, wallet software User experience is very, very poor in a hyper-competitive fee market.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Almost all bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners have stated they want a block size increase.  See the many media articles, BIP 101 letter, and wiki.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
It is a valid and rational economic choice to subsidize the system with lower fees in the beginning. Many miners, for example, openly state they prefer long term system growth over maximizing tiny amounts of current day income. Vetoing a block size increase has the effect of eliminating that economic choice as an option.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Without exaggeration, I have never seen this much disconnect between user wishes and dev outcomes in 20+ years of open source.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
Higher Service prices can negatively impact system security. Bitcoin depends on a virtuous cycle of users boosting and maintaining bitcoin's network effect, incentivizing miners, increasing security. Higher prices that reduce bitcoin's user count and network effect can have the opposite impact.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
We only know for certain that blocks-mostly-not-full works. We do not know that changing to blocks-mostly-full works. Changing to a new economic system includes boatloads of risk.
Quote from: Jeff Garzik
The worst possible outcome is letting the ecosystem randomly drift into the first Fee Event without openly stating the new economic policy choices and consequences. The simple fact is *inaction* on this supply-limited resource, block size, will change bitcoin to a new economic shape and with different economic actors, selecting some and not others. It is better to kick the can and gather crucial field data, because next-step (FFM) is very much not fleshed out.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?

well lauda let's remember that when the bitcoin xt debate started people already started to go on panic and selling but seems that instead now bitcoin becamed even stronger because it didn't only recovered the loss caused from the initial days but even got interest from this last. anyway i still think that all this debate over the block sizes is useless and can be instead a move that will slowdown the whole bitcoin network and make the start of the end for bitcoin and all the altcoins because let's remember how changes on bitcoin price causes changes even on the other coins....
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT

Here's the last Gavinista blockchain bloat activist "standing":

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
Prepare for incoming logic fallacies.  Cheesy I can't comprehend how someone could still support XT; how, after so much research, they could claim that this is a good solution? Trying to destroy Bitcoin maybe?
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Surprised that people are still on the xt bandwagon, neanderthals or homo habilus?
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