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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 3. (Read 378926 times)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining.

I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is a good thing. Pools promote decentralization compared to the alternatives, pools are like a form of representative democracy for the miners.

So you are mining in a BU mining pool? Which one is that?
I am mining with slush at the moment.

Today's way of mining, as a core dev pointed out, is a historical mistake that became popular.
I find this a ridiculous thing to say, pooled mining is how mining works today and it is a good thing.

If they had advertised p2pool from the beginning, then pooled mining might not look like it is today.
We should have done what Core told us to do instead of the market deciding for itself?

In earlier version of bitcoin, every miner is running a full node and use CPU to mine, that is the ideal configuration for a decentralized network, because there is no concentration of hash power.
That is not how it works today, furthermore it can not work that way today because of the size of the network, pools are essential in countering variance so that small miners can still operate profitably, without the pools we would have much more centralization in mining then we do today.

However with the rise of dedicated mining software and hardware, the mining start to concentrate at a handful of large pools, this dramatically increased the degree of centralization, because a few large pool can use miner's hash power to change the network without their awareness (2013 hard fork demonstrated god-like power from pools: BTCGUILD and Slush pool rolled back the fork with their hash power, most of their miners did not even know what happened)
I consider this a positive development, I think we would have gravitated towards this position naturally. Pools are like a form of representative democracy for the miners. Personally I am fond of the idea of having these large organizations like pools watching the blockchain on our behalf night and day, since they are in that position, I can go out and party and have a good time like I did tonight, without having to worry about what my hashpower was doing in case of a fork or any other complications.

Another advantage of pooled mining is that you do not require a good internet connection to participate, it in fact lowers the barrier to entry. I can also mine anonymously since latency is also not a significant issue when doing pooled mining. In regards to this blocksize debate it is also evident that pooled mining allows us to increase the blocksize without effecting mining centralization whatsoever, since pooled miners do not run full nodes for the purpose of mining, therefore they are not effected by the increased difficulty of running a full node. For the larger miners and pools, the cost of running a full node is relatively insignificant considering the size of their operations, even with much larger blocks.

P2Pool is painful to setup and run, but if you think long term wise, the future bitcoin mining should ideally all be done through P2POOL or similar way, thus totally eliminate the risk of large mining pools colluding to threaten the network. More importantly, if every miner need to run a full node, then the miner will be very aware of the impact of all the protocol change, thus become more involved in the protocol related discussion.
These are good points, and in principle I do like P2Pool. I even looked into doing P2P mining for my own operation, there where two problems however, one was that some of my equipment seemed to be incompatible or at the very least very complex to setup, secondly the hashrate for P2Pool is still to low, and the variance was to high. The reality therefore is that mining today is mostly done through public pools, I do not see this as a problem. I think that Bitcoin is working as it was intended and it should be allowed to continue to operate as intended by increasing the blocksize thereby not blocking the stream of transactions and allowing Bitcoin to continue to grow.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Bitfury's paper here:

http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/block-size-1.1.1.pdf

"The table contains an estimate of how many full nodes would no longer function without hard-ware upgrades as average block size is increased. These estimates are based on the assumption that many users run full nodes on consumer-grade hardware, whether on personal computers or in the
cloud. Characteristics of node hardware are based on a survey performed by Steam [19]; we assume PC gamers and Bitcoin enthusiasts have a similar amount of resources dedicated to their hardware.

The exception is RAM: we assume that a typical computer supporting a node has no less than 3 GB RAM as a node requires at least 2GB RAM to run with margin[15]. For example,if block size increases to 2 MB, a node would need to dedicate 8 GB RAM to the Bitcoin client, while more than a half of PCs
in the survey have less RAM."

Based on his estimation, raise the block size to 4MB will drop 75% of nodes from the network



The 8 GB RAM module for the computer that runs my Bitcoin Unlimited node has 8 GB of RAM.  I paid $67 for this memory module 13 months ago.  I note that Amazon is selling the same module today for $35 USD.  It is unreasonable to cripple bitcoin to support users running obsolete hardware.

Notice that setting up a full node does not benefit the node operator in anyway, and raise the block size will require thousands of such voluntarily setup nodes to upgrade. So I guess any rational human would refuse the node upgrade and pay the fee instead. I guess even the fee has risen to a prohibitive level, average user would still pay fee instead of setting up full nodes using dedicated hardware
It is not just that the fees will go up, there will not be enough space for everyone to transact regardless of the fee that they pay. It would also render transactions on the Bitcoin network much more unreliable.

It is not a rational decision for the network to prioritize full nodes over keeping the fees low. After all, the majority of users do not even run full nodes at all, why should they even care so much about servers in a datacentre. The benefits of low fees far outweigh the increased cost of running full nodes.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining.

I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is a good thing. Pools promote decentralization compared to the alternatives, pools are like a form of representative democracy for the miners.


So you are mining in a BU mining pool? Which one is that?

Today's way of mining, as a core dev pointed out, is a historical mistake that became popular. If they had advertised p2pool from the beginning, then pooled mining might not look like it is today

In earlier version of bitcoin, every miner is running a full node and use CPU to mine, that is the ideal configuration for a decentralized network, because there is no concentration of hash power

However with the rise of dedicated mining software and hardware, the mining start to concentrate at a handful of large pools, this dramatically increased the degree of centralization, because a few large pool can use miner's hash power to change the network without their awareness (2013 hard fork demonstrated god-like power from pools: BTCGUILD and Slush pool rolled back the fork with their hash power, most of their miners did not even know what happened)

P2Pool is painful to setup and run, but if you think long term wise, the future bitcoin mining should ideally all be done through P2POOL or similar way, thus totally eliminate the risk of large mining pools colluding to threaten the network. More importantly, if every miner need to run a full node, then the miner will be very aware of the impact of all the protocol change, thus become more involved in the protocol related discussion
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Bitfury's paper here:

http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/block-size-1.1.1.pdf

"The table contains an estimate of how many full nodes would no longer function without hard-ware upgrades as average block size is increased. These estimates are based on the assumption that many users run full nodes on consumer-grade hardware, whether on personal computers or in the
cloud. Characteristics of node hardware are based on a survey performed by Steam [19]; we assume PC gamers and Bitcoin enthusiasts have a similar amount of resources dedicated to their hardware.

The exception is RAM: we assume that a typical computer supporting a node has no less than 3 GB RAM as a node requires at least 2GB RAM to run with margin[15]. For example,if block size increases to 2 MB, a node would need to dedicate 8 GB RAM to the Bitcoin client, while more than a half of PCs
in the survey have less RAM."

Based on his estimation, raise the block size to 4MB will drop 75% of nodes from the network



The 8 GB RAM module for the computer that runs my Bitcoin Unlimited node has 8 GB of RAM.  I paid $67 for this memory module 13 months ago.  I note that Amazon is selling the same module today for $35 USD.  It is unreasonable to cripple bitcoin to support users running obsolete hardware.


Let's compare the cost for 4MB blocks:

1. You spend several hundred dollars on hardware and make a new node dedicated to bitcoin (many gaming machines do not support 16GB memory, thus you need to upgrade pretty much the whole machine), in hope of maintaining the $0.05 fee for bitcoin transactions (and it requires thousands of other nodes also do the same as you)

2. You use those several hundred dollars to pay the transaction fee (should be enough for at least one hundred transactions even the fee rose 100x to $5 per transaction)

Notice that setting up a full node does not benefit the node operator in anyway, and raise the block size will require thousands of such voluntarily setup nodes to upgrade. So I guess any rational human would refuse the node upgrade and pay the fee instead. I guess even the fee has risen to a prohibitive level, average user would still pay fee instead of setting up full nodes using dedicated hardware

donator
Activity: 1616
Merit: 1003
Any guesses as to whether or not the raw number behind the 15.8% of their Win user base that has 12 GiB or more completely dwarfs the 5555 or so full Bitcoin nodes?

I suspect there are many nodes running on hosted VMs in the sub-12GB RAM range. This category of hosted servers is not even represented in the Steam sample. I actually run a few 3.5GB nodes on Azure and they run real well because of the good connectivity. If you price 12GB VM images on Amazon or Azure you'll find that they run for a couple of hundred dollars a month or more, which is kind of expensive. So I would imagine that hobbyist-run hosted VMs would be the first drop off as RAM requirements went up.

legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1640
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Bitfury's paper here:

http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/block-size-1.1.1.pdf

Based on his estimation, raise the block size to 4MB will drop 75% of nodes from the network

Thanks for the link. I'll read it in its entirety.

Yeah. Back from reading it. The conclusion you quote is completely based upon RAM demands. The RAM per node assumptions hinge completely upon a survey of machines running Steam. Other than to reiterate how absurd this appears to me, I shall refrain from further comment.

Well, after adding this... I can see the motivation for using Steam figures. They are publicly available, and form a fairly broad sampling. As such, they are an easy thing to cling to. However, they are a sampling only of a completely unrelated user base. Pity I've not been able to locate absolute numbers in Steam's data set. Any guesses as to whether or not the raw number behind the 15.8% of their Win user base that has 12 GiB or more completely dwarfs the 5555 or so full Bitcoin nodes?
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1640
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
BU ... doesn't even have the proper code that it needs (Source: Gavin).

I see that you are trying to build in the mind the reader the impression that Gavin has declared that the BU codebase has resulted in a faulty executable program. Unless Gavin has issued further input to the BU review, you are mischaracterizing his statement. Nothing i have read in his comments would support that position.

Of course, if he has issued a further statement, I'd be happy to read it.

Incidentally: appeal to authority?
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 251
Bitfury's paper here:

http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/block-size-1.1.1.pdf

"The table contains an estimate of how many full nodes would no longer function without hard-ware upgrades as average block size is increased. These estimates are based on the assumption that many users run full nodes on consumer-grade hardware, whether on personal computers or in the
cloud. Characteristics of node hardware are based on a survey performed by Steam [19]; we assume PC gamers and Bitcoin enthusiasts have a similar amount of resources dedicated to their hardware.

The exception is RAM: we assume that a typical computer supporting a node has no less than 3 GB RAM as a node requires at least 2GB RAM to run with margin[15]. For example,if block size increases to 2 MB, a node would need to dedicate 8 GB RAM to the Bitcoin client, while more than a half of PCs
in the survey have less RAM."

Based on his estimation, raise the block size to 4MB will drop 75% of nodes from the network



The 8 GB RAM module for the computer that runs my Bitcoin Unlimited node has 8 GB of RAM.  I paid $67 for this memory module 13 months ago.  I note that Amazon is selling the same module today for $35 USD.  It is unreasonable to cripple bitcoin to support users running obsolete hardware.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
As I said earlier when looking at block size you have to look at transaction fees.Do we force larger transaction fees on people or do we just let the chinese tell us what they want.I was told this was in the future but sorry the future is now

Yes! Let's socialize costs on everyone like all good collectivists shills would.

TRANSACTION SUBSIDY FOR EVERYONE!!! BITCOIN FOR THE PEOPLE!!

You statists make me sick  Undecided
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
BU is anything but an elegant solution. It doesn't even have the proper code that it needs (Source: Gavin).

Just a nit, but there is a subtle point. The primary limiting technological factor for transaction rate is bandwidth and latency.  (This changes the wording, so as to eliminate counting games such as Seg W.)
What about propagation delay?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I presume that you did not read the posts I linked earlier that I wrote. In there I explained how increasing the blocksize, does not increase the barrier to entry of mining whatsoever. Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining. I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is good.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-203#post-7395
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-208#post-7550
Larger blocks increase the chances of block orphans which public pools are more at risk of than larger private miners.

I know it pleases you to live in your own little lunacy and pretend that you understand these things but this is not really debatable since this is pretty much what came out of the discussion between miners and developers at the most recent Scaling Bitcoin conference.
I will try explaining it in a way in which you might understand:

I can see Taek made a valiant effort at explaining it to you over there at the mental ward but as usual you were too dense to understand and kept mischaracterizing his arguments and straight up making strawmen out of them.

Hopefully you plan to be a little more honest and gracious and less disingenuous in 2016!

Bitcoin Unlimited: let's hand it all off to miners and call it the free market!
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I presume that you did not read the posts I linked earlier that I wrote. In there I explained how increasing the blocksize, does not increase the barrier to entry of mining whatsoever. Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining. I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is good.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-203#post-7395
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-208#post-7550
Larger blocks increase the chances of block orphans which public pools are more at risk of than larger private miners.

I know it pleases you to live in your own little lunacy and pretend that you understand these things but this is not really debatable since this is pretty much what came out of the discussion between miners and developers at the most recent Scaling Bitcoin conference.
I will try explaining it in a way in which you might understand:









http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/index.html
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
As I said earlier when looking at block size you have to look at transaction fees.Do we force larger transaction fees on people or do we just let the chinese tell us what they want.I was told this was in the future but sorry the future is now
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 251
But simulation by bitfury already indicated that we will have a severe performance problem with 4MB blocks on average home computer
I'd like to see that report. Got a link?

With only several thousand running full nodes now, it seems to me that 'average home computer' is not the limiting issue.
The primary limiting technological factor for blocksize today is bandwidth and latency.

Just a nit, but there is a subtle point. The primary limiting technological factor for transaction rate is bandwidth and latency.  (This changes the wording, so as to eliminate counting games such as Seg W.)
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I presume that you did not read the posts I linked earlier that I wrote. In there I explained how increasing the blocksize, does not increase the barrier to entry of mining whatsoever. Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining. I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is good.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-203#post-7395
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-208#post-7550

Larger blocks increase the chances of block orphans which public pools are more at risk of than larger private miners.

I know it pleases you to live in your own little lunacy and pretend that you understand these things but this is not really debatable since this is pretty much what came out of the discussion between miners and developers at the most recent Scaling Bitcoin conference.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Jeff and Gavin's statement recently:

"However, in the short term, we have a disappointing situation where a subset of dev consensus is disconnected from the oft-mentioned desire to increase block size on the part of users, businesses, exchanges and miners. This reshapes bitcoin in ways full of philosophical and economic conflicts of interest. "

I'm more interested in the philosophical conflicts of interest here, unfortunately they did not mention what are they. I believe bitcoin's long term success will depends on its core philosophy

For example, everyone without permission can set up a full node and start to mine bitcoins (p2pool), thus become a part of a decentralized global banking system. It is this free of entry all the way into money creation attracted so many enthusiasts. So I think permission-less is the core philosophy of bitcoin

Following this philosophy, if you have too high barrier of entry (too high requirement on hardware and mining investment for individuals), then it is not a permission-less system any more

Similarly, everyone should be able to use the blockchain to do transactions without permission

So that is the conflict of interest here: If you want every one can setup a full node at home and mine bitcoins, then you should keep the block size small, thus not everyone will be able to use the blockchain to do transactions. There should be a balance between these two considerations

I just had another idea: If you setup a full node, then you can do transactions cheaply. Easy to explain, difficult to implement  Grin
I presume that you did not read the posts I linked earlier that I wrote. In there I explained how increasing the blocksize, does not increase the barrier to entry of mining whatsoever. Miners do not even run full nodes themselves for the purpose of mining, which is why the increased difficulty of running a full node does not increase the difficulty or barrier to entry of mining.

I am a miner myself, solo mining is only feasible if you are a huge industrial operation, not exactly contributing to decentralization. P2P mining unfortunately is not good enough both due to the increased complexity and incompatibility with certain ASIC miners, this is reflected in the hashrate. More then seventy percent of the mining power is presently inside of public pools, this is a good thing. Pools promote decentralization compared to the alternatives, pools are like a form of representative democracy for the miners.

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-203#post-7395
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-208#post-7550
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Quote from: rusty
This problem is far worse if blocks were 8MB: an 8MB transaction with 22,500 inputs and 3.95MB of outputs takes over 11 minutes to hash. If you can mine one of those, you can keep competitors off your heels forever, and own the bitcoin network… Well, probably not.  But there’d be a lot of emergency patching, forking and screaming…
And this is with the initial optimizations completed to speed up Verification.
This means that If we hardforked a 2MB MaxBlockSize increase on the main tree and we softforked/hardforked in SepSig, we would essentially have up to a 8MB limit (3.5MB to 8MB) in which an attack vector could be opened up with heavy output and multisig tx which would crash nodes.
What you are saying here is completely factually inaccurate, the number of transactions does not increase hashing time.

BitUsher may have confused things up with the term "hash" but what he says is factually correct.

Quote
Even a single-line change such as increasing the maximum block size has effects on other parts of the code, some of which are undesirable. For example, right now it’s possible to construct a transaction that takes up almost 1MB of space and which takes 30 seconds or more to validate on a modern computer (blocks containing such transactions have been mined). In 2MB blocks, a 2MB transaction can be constructed that may take over 10 minutes to validate which opens up dangerous denial-of-service attack vectors. Other lines of code would need to be changed to prevent these problems.
.

https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Jeff and Gavin's statement recently:

"However, in the short term, we have a disappointing situation where a subset of dev consensus is disconnected from the oft-mentioned desire to increase block size on the part of users, businesses, exchanges and miners. This reshapes bitcoin in ways full of philosophical and economic conflicts of interest. "

I'm more interested in the philosophical conflicts of interest here, unfortunately they did not mention what are they. I believe bitcoin's long term success will depends on its core philosophy

For example, everyone without permission can set up a full node and start to mine bitcoins (p2pool), thus become a part of a decentralized global banking system. It is this free of entry all the way into money creation attracted so many enthusiasts. So I think permission-less is the core philosophy of bitcoin

Following this philosophy, if you have too high barrier of entry (too high requirement on hardware and mining investment for individuals), then it is not a permission-less system any more

Similarly, everyone should be able to use the blockchain to do transactions without permission

So that is the conflict of interest here: If you want every one can setup a full node at home and mine bitcoins, then you should keep the block size small, thus not everyone will be able to use the blockchain to do transactions. There should be a balance between these two considerations

I just had another idea: If you setup a full node, then you can do transactions cheaply. Easy to explain, difficult to implement  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1115

Huh?

The author in question was reporting hearsays from discussion w/ some people from BTCC and is not representing BTCC himself.

submitted 10 hours ago by btcc_samson
Quote
[/To clarify, /u/jtoomim did speak with us so he's not making things up or lying. He's been investing a great deal of time and effort to really talk to everyone and gather real data. He should be applauded.

Sorry to post this here, but would rather not post in /r/bitcoin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3yw49p/toomim_btcc_comment/
quote]
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
But simulation by bitfury already indicated that we will have a severe performance problem with 4MB blocks on average home computer

I'd like to see that report. Got a link?

With only several thousand running full nodes now, it seems to me that 'average home computer' is not the limiting issue.
I don't remember exactly, but just google it, and also another statistic by Mark in Montreal conference showing that even a 1MB block can take over 30s to verify on a mining node
Today we have the mining relay network, the block is relayed in milliseconds. What you are saying is factually incorrect.

There is absolutely no relation between the time it takes to relay and the time it takes for nodes to verify it.

As usual, you have no clue what it is you are talking about.
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