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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 8. (Read 378991 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
I can't wait to start generating 16MB blocks construed so as to take 128 minutes to verify.  Once your derp forks' chain(s?) cannot be verified in real time (and it becomes impossible to bootstrap new full nodes) it's game over.  Unless Mikey "Final Call" Hearn wants to sit around forever checkpointing out troll blocks....   Smiley

This assumes miners are idiots and will sit there for 128 min trying to verify a block rather than build on a longer chain of smaller, shorter blocks. Also, you're being absolutist here, many would be satisfied with 2MB to study the effects on nodes, gain time to carefully and methodically roll out segwit, and time to plan a more permanent solution.

Big pool/miner nodes use 15 or 18 core Xeons, and given competitive tx fees (and/or out-of-band arrangements) will be happy to quickly construe 16MB XT/BU blocks which take hours to verify on a normal laptop.

Core may change to 2MB eventually, if and only if the 1MB control variable in the Bitcoin experiment proves to be a threat to the antifragility of the entire system.

We must know if or exactly when 1MB causes Bitcoin to fail, and for what reasons.  Magic numbers picked before such an informative event (ie teachable moment) are worse than useless.

Premature increases retard development of fee markets critical for weaning Bitcoin off block subsidies and onto self-sufficient tx provision utility.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Why are you still entertaining the notion that a network wide hardfork can be deployed faster than SW can?

because he clearly understands this better than you do. Block size limit can be changed in a heartbeat. Satoshi describes the whole process here. Most existing bitcoin elements will work with it without change.

However, seqwit requires complete and complex changes to:

  • bitcoin transactions,
  • blocks,
  • addresses,
  • scripts,
  • full nodes,
  • miners,
  • wallets,
  • explorers,
  • exchanges,
  • libraries,
  • APIs

Not a single piece of the bitcoin ecosystem will work with segwit without an upgrade.
 
Quote
No one proposes to rush through SegWit. It seems you are largely ignorant of what its deployment entail other than the couple posts you've read on reddit or Jeff's FUD.

Except you. Have you short term memory issues, or have you hit your limit on simultaneous threads? Earlier you are banging on about how segwit is here, ready for deployment.  As regards what it involves to deploy - see above.


Quote
SegWit is opt-in and if service providers are pro-active it can be ready to roll out when the code is implemented into Core. At least that's what the dev of the 2nd most popular iOS app plans to do.

Wrong. segwit is no longer optional. you may ignore it, but that puts you back to spv mode.

Quote
Spare us your concern trolling unless you can provide a detailed account of the "massive upgrade" you talk about.


Spare us your Trolling, full stop.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
I trust the BIP process and the socioeconomic majority's marketplace of ideas will figure it out.

Good one.

http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Quote
[00:08] bramc: but today we have a blocksize limit low enough that everyone has access to reasonably low orphan rates
[00:08] bramc: (remember that the networking code we have right now on the p2p network is *really* inefficient)
[00:09] petertodd, And the blocksize limit is staying down there, by design
[00:09] bramc: what do you mean?
[00:10] petertodd, The current 'plan of record' is for the block size to de facto go up by less than 2x with segwit and otherwise stay put, at least for now
[00:10] For exactly that reason
[00:10] bramc: sure

Not tonight, dear.

Always cute.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Quote
[00:08] bramc: but today we have a blocksize limit low enough that everyone has access to reasonably low orphan rates
[00:08] bramc: (remember that the networking code we have right now on the p2p network is *really* inefficient)
[00:09] petertodd, And the blocksize limit is staying down there, by design
[00:09] bramc: what do you mean?
[00:10] petertodd, The current 'plan of record' is for the block size to de facto go up by less than 2x with segwit and otherwise stay put, at least for now
[00:10] For exactly that reason
[00:10] bramc: sure

Not tonight, dear.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Jeff Garzik and Gavin Andresen: Bitcoin is Being Hot-Wired for Settlement

Quote
We have a disappointing situation where a subset of dev consensus is disconnected from the oft-mentioned desire to increase block size on the part of users, businesses, exchanges and miners. This reshapes bitcoin in ways full of philosophical and economic conflicts of interest. As noted here, inaction changes bitcoin, sets it on a new path



It is interesting to see that Jeff is now teaming up with Gavin, what is happening inside the core devs? It seems the situation suddenly get weird after the HK conference

http://www.coindesk.com/blockstream-21-million-seed-capital/ Linkedin, Airbnb, Google, Yahoo ... many of the software heavy weights are backing blockstream, no doubt there are so much slides from that direction, they have been preparing for over one year with all these solutions

However the solutions from blockstream are all complex. Raised level of complexity will dramatically reduce its ability to survival long term wise, and the acceptance from miners/users will be very low

I think at these stage any more talk is meaningless, let the predictive market decide which fork will survive. Satoshi's one million coin can destroy any fork he does not like, so I think any design that is against Satoshi's original vision have a high risk of failure. Of course he might not react, but then independent core devs also hold lots of coins (Rich guys don't need a boss) that can be mass dumped, let the star wars begin Grin

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Why are you still entertaining the notion that a network wide hardfork can be deployed faster than SW can?

Because it's one line of code vs well... an untested and fairly complex reorg of the protocol.

See what you did here?

No matter how complex SW can still be deployed and made effective faster than a hard fork which will take at least a full year to deploy and activate.

Well, I apologize for concern trolling while a single company molds a decentralized protocol, of which I'm a long time participant, to its self interested will.

Your concerns would be appreciated if they were based on facts and legitimate understanding of the dynamics involved. Clearly these are not things you can bring to the table.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Why are you still entertaining the notion that a network wide hardfork can be deployed faster than SW can?

Because it's one line of code vs well... an untested and fairly complex reorg of the protocol.

Quote
No one proposes to rush through SegWit. It seems you are largely ignorant of what its deployment entail other than the couple posts you've read on reddit or Jeff's FUD.

Oh, I'm aware there is no rush... it's become painfully apparent. And doing a soft fork is ideal when you plan to keep hard forks, ie:max block size increase, quite contentious in the future as well.

Quote
SegWit is opt-in and if service providers are pro-active it can be ready to roll out when the code is implemented. At least that's what the dev of the 2nd most popular iOS app plans to do.

Spare us your concern trolling unless you can provide a detailed account of the "massive upgrade" you talk about.

Well, I apologize for concern trolling while a single company molds a decentralized protocol, of which I'm a long time participant, to its self interested will.

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Why are you still entertaining the notion that a network wide hardfork can be deployed faster than SW can?

Because it's one line of code vs well... an untested and fairly complex reorg of the protocol.

Quote
No one proposes to rush through SegWit. It seems you are largely ignorant of what its deployment entail other than the couple posts you've read on reddit or Jeff's FUD.

Oh, I'm aware there is no rush... it's become painfully apparent. And doing a soft fork is ideal when you plan to keep hard forks, ie:max block size increase, quite contentious in the future as well.

Quote
SegWit is opt-in and if service providers are pro-active it can be ready to roll out when the code is implemented. At least that's what the dev of the 2nd most popular iOS app plans to do.

Spare us your concern trolling unless you can provide a detailed account of the "massive upgrade" you talk about.

Well, I apologize for concern trolling while a single company molds a decentralized protocol, of which I'm a long time participant, to its self interested will.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

This assumes miners are idiots and will sit there for 128 min trying to verify a block rather than build on a longer chain of smaller, shorter blocks. Also, you're being absolutist here, many would be satisfied with 2MB to study the effects on nodes, gain time to carefully and methodically roll out segwit, and time to plan a more permanent solution.


Why are you still entertaining the notion that a network wide hardfork can be deployed faster than SW can?

No one proposes to rush through SegWit. It seems you are largely ignorant of what its deployment entail other than the couple posts you've read on reddit or Jeff's FUD.

SegWit is opt-in and if service providers are pro-active it can be ready to roll out when the code is implemented into Core. At least that's what the dev of the 2nd most popular iOS app plans to do.

Spare us your concern trolling unless you can provide a detailed account of the "massive upgrade" you talk about.

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
iCE, have you had enough time to decide if segwit is an attack on Bitcoin Classic?

I'm very happy to finally have a decent plan (besides Dr. Back's extension blocks) on the shelf for use in the (potentially disastrous) event of Actual Widespread Adoption.

Segwit seems to kill 10 birds with one stone, so I don't have a problem with it continuing to percolate through the BIP process.

No firm opinion yet on doing it as a hard or soft fork.  Soft seems better if done electively (because fight features), hard if done in crisis mode.

Have the Gavinistas decided on whether or not segwit is a good thing or a tool of Blockstream Satan?

Is there a schism between the pro-segwit XTurds and anti-segwit Unlimiturds?   Grin

Nah, my impression is that most in favor of moving past 1MB soon(er than 2017) think segwit can be quite beneficial, but probably better/cleaner as a hard fork.

The only one going to war with segwit seems to be MP and his toadies. 

I'm not the only one who instinctively fights features, and brg (one of MP's best toadies) seems generally fine with segwit.  To reiterate/clarify, I don't support elective segwit implementation nearly as strongly as a ready-to-go 'break glass in case of fire' backup plan.

Segwit isn't something that can happen over night. It will take a massive upgrade of all wallets, services, etc, to use it effectively. So... emergency deployment isn't exactly ideal or even realistic.

Quote
Bitcoin may not need segwit to get the list of goodies (malleability prevention, etc.) associated with it, just as it may not need (transaction) blocks >1MB to scale.  There may be better ways to prevent malleability, etc. so we don't want to risk ossification with the wrong (but good enough) solution.  I trust the BIP process and the socioeconomic majority's marketplace of ideas will figure it out.

You're right, for a certain level of activity, it could stay exactly the same as it is today... this is the "security" through obscurity route.

Quote
Are XTurd and Unlimiturd both going to add segwit?

I assume so, if they actually want to continue verifying blocks. All previous versions of core will become glorified SPV+ nodes after the soft fork.

Quote
I can't wait to start generating 16MB blocks construed so as to take 128 minutes to verify.  Once your derp forks' chain(s?) cannot be verified in real time (and it becomes impossible to bootstrap new full nodes) it's game over.  Unless Mikey "Final Call" Hearn wants to sit around forever checkpointing out troll blocks....   Smiley

This assumes miners are idiots and will sit there for 128 min trying to verify a block rather than build on a longer chain of smaller, shorter blocks. Also, you're being absolutist here, many would be satisfied with 2MB to study the effects on nodes, gain time to carefully and methodically roll out segwit, and time to plan a more permanent solution.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Now the miners with the support of the economic majority can increase the blocksize limit to whatever size they want. Thanks to Bitcoin Unlimited we are no longer depended upon the choices handed down to us by any group of developers, Bitcoin Unlimited has given us an Unlimited range of choice. Smiley
Actually you are dependent on the choice made by the miners and not much else.

To use your rhetoric you are effectively opening yourself to tyranny of the sybil majority.
Proof of work can not be sybil attacked, neither can the will of the economic majority. I am surprised that you do not realize this yet.

Whoever said we would sybil attack proof of work?

By what metric do you gauge "the will of the economic majority"?

Seems to me miners simply get to pick and choose whatever blocksize they're comfortable with.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Now the miners with the support of the economic majority can increase the blocksize limit to whatever size they want. Thanks to Bitcoin Unlimited we are no longer depended upon the choices handed down to us by any group of developers, Bitcoin Unlimited has given us an Unlimited range of choice. Smiley
Actually you are dependent on the choice made by the miners and not much else.

To use your rhetoric you are effectively opening yourself to tyranny of the sybil majority.
Proof of work can not be sybil attacked, neither can the will of the economic majority. I am surprised that you do not realize this yet.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Now the miners with the support of the economic majority can increase the blocksize limit to whatever size they want. Thanks to Bitcoin Unlimited we are no longer depended upon the choices handed down to us by any group of developers, Bitcoin Unlimited has given us an Unlimited range of choice. Smiley

Actually you are dependent on the choice made by the miners and not much else.

To use your rhetoric you are effectively opening yourself to tyranny of the sybil majority.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Miners will do their best to follow the economic majority and pick the chain they believe will be worth something. They don't exactly decide which one that will be.
If Core gets its way, then this point is moot. Its only a possibility ( to choose and follow) where miners are actually given the choice. Its Core's consuming fear that, if given the choice, miners will vote to go with bigger blocks, without the need of the extra baggage of ln, elements, sw, rbf, etc.

Thats why everything on Core's so-called "Roadmap" involves zero choice.
That's why we're only asking for miners' opinion and not for them to choose. It's not up to them.
I think you will find that it is.
If it was then BIP100 would've been implemented months ago.
Were they given the choice? No. So how the f*ck could they have implemented it?
Now the miners with the support of the economic majority can increase the blocksize limit to whatever size they want. Thanks to Bitcoin Unlimited we are no longer depended upon the choices handed down to us by any group of developers, Bitcoin Unlimited has given us an Unlimited range of choice. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
iCE, have you had enough time to decide if segwit is an attack on Bitcoin Classic?

I'm very happy to finally have a decent plan (besides Dr. Back's extension blocks) on the shelf for use in the (potentially disastrous) event of Actual Widespread Adoption.

Segwit seems to kill 10 birds with one stone, so I don't have a problem with it continuing to percolate through the BIP process.

No firm opinion yet on doing it as a hard or soft fork.  Soft seems better if done electively (because fight features), hard if done in crisis mode.

Have the Gavinistas decided on whether or not segwit is a good thing or a tool of Blockstream Satan?

Is there a schism between the pro-segwit XTurds and anti-segwit Unlimiturds?   Grin

Nah, my impression is that most in favor of moving past 1MB soon(er than 2017) think segwit can be quite beneficial, but probably better/cleaner as a hard fork.

The only one going to war with segwit seems to be MP and his toadies. 

I'm not the only one who instinctively fights features, and brg (one of MP's best toadies) seems generally fine with segwit.  To reiterate/clarify, I don't support elective segwit implementation nearly as strongly as a ready-to-go 'break glass in case of fire' backup plan.

Bitcoin may not need segwit to get the list of goodies (malleability prevention, etc.) associated with it, just as it may not need (transaction) blocks >1MB to scale.  There may be better ways to prevent malleability, etc. so we don't want to risk ossification with the wrong (but good enough) solution.  I trust the BIP process and the socioeconomic majority's marketplace of ideas will figure it out.

Are XTurd and Unlimiturd both going to add segwit?

I can't wait to start generating 16MB blocks construed so as to take 128 minutes to verify.  Once your derp forks' chain(s?) cannot be verified in real time (and it becomes impossible to bootstrap new full nodes) it's game over.  Unless Mikey "Final Call" Hearn wants to sit around forever checkpointing out troll blocks....   Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
I'm not the only one who knows the conjuction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Front

The trivial, mostly harmless "National" strain is not what is meant or implied 99% of the time by the unadorned term you originally used.

That nearly obsolete reference doesn't fit your (typically overdramatic) metaphor about authoritarianism, which compares Bitcoin.org's blacklisting of Coinbase ("small block terrorism") with the Russian Revolution's violent destruction of one of the world's greatest empires and resulting Stalinist dictatorship.

Thanks for the opportunity to point out Bitcoin.org is not in any way accurately described as Bolshevik, because not giving Coinbase free advertising isn't the same thing as the war/terror/famine of the world revolution's first dominoes.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista


Totally up to them..

Code:
02:44   gmaxwell        thats lovely, they're climing v3 but not enforcing it.


spv mining is relevent... how?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
[
Miners will do their best to follow the economic majority and pick the chain they believe will be worth something. They don't exactly decide which one that will be.

If Core gets its way, then this point is moot. Its only a possibility ( to choose and follow) where miners are actually given the choice. Its Core's consuming fear that, if given the choice, miners will vote to go with bigger blocks, without the need of the extra baggage of ln, elements, sw, rbf, etc.

Thats why everything on Core's so-called "Roadmap" involves zero choice.

That's why we're only asking for miners' opinion and not for them to choose. It's not up to them.

I think you will find that it is.

If it was then BIP100 would've been implemented months ago.

Were they given the choice? No. So how the f*ck could they have implemented it?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
[
Miners will do their best to follow the economic majority and pick the chain they believe will be worth something. They don't exactly decide which one that will be.

If Core gets its way, then this point is moot. Its only a possibility ( to choose and follow) where miners are actually given the choice. Its Core's consuming fear that, if given the choice, miners will vote to go with bigger blocks, without the need of the extra baggage of ln, elements, sw, rbf, etc.

Thats why everything on Core's so-called "Roadmap" involves zero choice.

That's why we're only asking for miners' opinion and not for them to choose. It's not up to them.

I think you will find that it is.

Totally up to them..

Code:
02:44   gmaxwell        thats lovely, they're climing v3 but not enforcing it.

http://pastebin.com/R1XNGeXr


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