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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 39. (Read 378991 times)

sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
I prefer their understanding of free market economics and Bitcoin governance specifically. In contrast I am strongly opposed to the governance model that Core is presently advocating, I consider it to be totalitarian in nature.

And what is their understanding of how bitcoin should be governed?

Mike said Bitcoin core needs one person at the top a 'benovelent dictator' who should be Gavin. Thats what he intends for XT.

... but only after core dies which he said needs to happen.

Coinbase also want Gavin as benevolent dictator to head bitcoin development  (not one implementation but the whole protocol), thats what they said (paraphrasing).

You like that view on governance? You consider that view less totalitarian in nature?


Thanks but no thanks.


I prefer cores open, inclusive, cautious if maybe slower approach. It has worked very well so far and Bitcoin has been improving, and growing very well under that model.



legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283

I consider Mike Hearn, Gavin Andresen, jtoomim and the theZerg to better align with my believes and world view as developers compared to the Core developers you mention. I prefer their understanding of free market economics and Bitcoin governance specifically.

Totally!  I call again to 'stop worrying and love the blockchain fork' (put more amusingly than I was able by...um...that very bright Israeli mining algo specialist who's name escapes me at the moment.)  It would be great for all concerned to focus on what is important to them and not be bothered by the other side.

Now is a great time to do it while Bitcoin is relatively small not having yet been economically necessary on a broad scale.  It is also fairly clear in most people's minds what is the right direction for their goals, and equally importantly, things seem to be pretty binary between a bloating system which gains strength from a broad userbase, and a tight system which derives strength from broad infrastructure support distribution.

Edit: Oh ya, Meni Rosenfeld (or something close to that.)

hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I consider Mike Hearn, Gavin Andresen, jtoomim and the theZerg to better align with my believes and world view as developers compared to the Core developers you mention. I prefer their understanding of free market economics and Bitcoin governance specifically. In contrast I am strongly opposed to the governance model that Core is presently advocating, I consider it to be totalitarian in nature. The economic model that Core is operating under I also consider flawed, so much so that I would expect it to fail in the presence of real competition, this competition is also to be expected, especially if we end up with two concurrent chains.

Here is an example of a founding document for the governance of an alternative client implementation done right, Bitcoin Unlimited:

http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/articlesOfFederation
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Its funny how you are aligning yourself with the cyberpunks, without actually qualifying what that means and how that is supposedly helping your argument. It seems like you are attaching yourself to a movement in order to lend your views credence. However I do not see how the cyberpunk movement is even relevant in this case. It is not clear based on the ideology of that movement which path seems to be most inline with that particular ideology. I could easily argue that increasing the blocksize is more inline with the cyberpunk movement. I do not see the point to this however since this does not actually strengthen my argumentation whatsoever, I would only be attempting to make myself look better.

Quote
A cypherpunk is any activist advocating widespread use of strong cryptography as a route to social and political change.

I think this does actually describe the believe of most Bitcoiners well, except for those Bitcoiners that are still denying the political aspects to what is happening here, which is ironic considering the political roots of the cyberpunk movement. I think the best way to effect the most social change is to allow for increased adoption and global use of this technology. BIP101 best accomplishes this by having steady predictable growth and by not allowing the stream of transactions to be blocked, unlike what Core is presently suggesting.

It is good to recognize however that if Bitcoin is intended for global adoption that eventually the economic majority who rules Bitcoin will at a certain point not be primarily made up of cyberpunks, unless we succeed in spreading this philosophy faster then Bitcoin spreads, which I think is unlikely. Over time this ideology will become more and more diluted within Bitcoin and its influence over its direction will waver. I think this is oke, it is what would achieve the most social and political change after all.

I do not actually want increased anonymity within Bitcoin, within a certain extend. Better IP obfuscation would be fine however anonymizing the links between transactions for instance I would be opposed to. This is because I would like to see banks, governments and corporations operate on the Bitcoin blockchain, this would create a better world, its effects are rather profound actually in terms of the amount of problems this would solve. This is why having a transparent blockchain is so important.

I am a big fan of alternative anonymous cryptocurrencies, I think these are great for private use when we do desire more privacy. I suppose what I am saying here is that maybe it is wrong to attempt to "force" this cyberpunk vision on Bitcoin considering that was never the intention to begin with, it might also be worth contemplating that mass adoption, ease of use and low cost might actually be desirable if our objective is to gain as much adoption as possible for the duel reason of both securing the network and helping to bring about social and political change.

Quote from: Stephen Pair
If history is any guide, Bitcoin will not likely become a settlement system unless it first has widespread adoption as a payment system

At least Bitpay gets it, so does Coinbase. I know you guys do not like these companies and you are happy to stand against them however I am happy to stand with them, after all it is companies like these that are more likely to represent the economic majority, when it does come down to a vote.

I have also recently been thinking that I would be happy to see Bitcoin split and allowing the market to decide over time which one will be considered superior. I am confident that the big block chain with an abundance of transactional capacity and low fees will rise to the top eventually, it is basic economics really. I have come to realize that some of these ideological differences are irreconcilable, which might indeed necessitate such a split. I believe hard forks serve as an important governance mechanism within Bitcoin, this is how fundemental disagreements should be resolved.

It could be however that once that time comes it could turn out that the small blockists are in the minority. After all Satoshi Nakamoto was a greater big blockist then I am, I suppose according to your reasoning that would mean Satoshi was not a cyberpunk, I disagree obviously but you are free to believe what you want. Time will tell, either way I am confident that the original vision of Satoshi Nakamoto will triumph, one way or another.

Quote from: tsontar
In my discussions with various members of Core, I have reached the conclusion that most of them simply disagree with the design of Bitcoin, which by design allows the consensus rules to be changed by a sufficient majority of miners and users, independent of what any group of technocrats wish. It is important to remember not to attribute malice where ignorance is equally explanatory. All of the devs I engage with are very strong in cryptography and computer science, which may make them less accepting of the fact that at its core, Bitcoin relies in the economic self-interest of the masses to govern consensus, not a group of educated technocrats. As an educated technocrat myself I can understand the sentiment. It would be better if math and only math governed Bitcoin. But that's not how Bitcoin is actually governed. At the end of the day, if social engineering and developer manipulation can kill Bitcoin, well then we're all betting on the wrong horse.

1) I have nothing against these companies (bitpay or coinbase), them making money or providing usefull services for users. I like them and support them.

That does not mean I have to be oblivious to the reality that they are big centralised companies that do not care much about privacy and have to be subservient to gov and regulators, thats a requirement of their business model.

2) re: cypherpunk

I view cypherpunks as people who design and create technology (often with use of crypto) that views the government and its power structures in an adversarial way. Effect social change by taking away power from gov and institutions and giving it along with privacy to everybody.

People like Nick Szabo, Adam Back, Bram Cohen etc. have through their work and their results have shown their credentials throughout decades!

People like Mike Hearn, Coinbase et al, who criticises privacy solutions like coinjoin, because it will make Bitcoin harder to accept by government are not that.

Through his work and statements Mike Hearn (and to lesser extent Gavin) have shown to not have the same world view. That does not make them bad people or mean they can not make valuable contributions.


hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Its funny how you are aligning yourself with the cyberpunks, without actually qualifying what that means and how that is supposedly helping your argument. It seems like you are attaching yourself to a movement in order to lend your views credence. However I do not see how the cyberpunk movement is even relevant in this case. It is not clear based on the ideology of that movement which path seems to be most inline with that particular ideology. I could easily argue that increasing the blocksize is more inline with the cyberpunk movement. I do not see the point to this however since this does not actually strengthen my argumentation whatsoever, I would only be attempting to make myself look better.

Quote
A cypherpunk is any activist advocating widespread use of strong cryptography as a route to social and political change.

I think this does actually describe the believe of most Bitcoiners well, except for those Bitcoiners that are still denying the political aspects to what is happening here, which is ironic considering the political roots of the cyberpunk movement. I think the best way to effect the most social change is to allow for increased adoption and global use of this technology. BIP101 best accomplishes this by having steady predictable growth and by not allowing the stream of transactions to be blocked, unlike what Core is presently suggesting.

It is good to recognize however that if Bitcoin is intended for global adoption that eventually the economic majority who rules Bitcoin will at a certain point not be primarily made up of cyberpunks, unless we succeed in spreading this philosophy faster then Bitcoin spreads, which I think is unlikely. Over time this ideology will become more and more diluted within Bitcoin and its influence over its direction will waver. I think this is oke, it is what would achieve the most social and political change after all.

I do not actually want increased anonymity within Bitcoin, within a certain extend. Better IP obfuscation would be fine however anonymizing the links between transactions for instance I would be opposed to. This is because I would like to see banks, governments and corporations operate on the Bitcoin blockchain, this would create a better world, its effects are rather profound actually in terms of the amount of problems this would solve. This is why having a transparent blockchain is so important.

I am a big fan of alternative anonymous cryptocurrencies, I think these are great for private use when we do desire more privacy. I suppose what I am saying here is that maybe it is wrong to attempt to "force" this cyberpunk vision onto Bitcoin considering that was never the intention to begin with, it might also be worth contemplating that mass adoption, ease of use and low cost might actually be desirable if our objective is to gain as much adoption as possible for the duel reason of both securing the network and helping to bring about the most social and political change.

Quote from: Stephen Pair
If history is any guide, Bitcoin will not likely become a settlement system unless it first has widespread adoption as a payment system

At least Bitpay gets it, so does Coinbase. I know you guys do not like these companies and you are happy to stand against them however I am happy to stand with them, after all it is companies like these that are more likely to represent the economic majority, when it does come down to a vote.

I have also recently been thinking that I would be happy to see Bitcoin split, this would allow the market to decide over time which chain will be considered superior. I am confident that the big block chain with an abundance of transactional capacity and low fees would rise to the top eventually, it is basic economics really. I have come to realize that some of these ideological differences are irreconcilable, which might indeed necessitate such a split. I believe hard forks serve as an important governance mechanism within Bitcoin, this is how fundamental disagreements within Bitcoin should be resolved.

It could be however that once that time comes, that the small blockists will be in the minority. After all Satoshi was a greater big blockist then I am, I suppose according to your reasoning that would mean Satoshi was not a cyberpunk, I disagree obviously but you are free to believe what you want. Time will tell, either way I am confident that the original vision of Satoshi Nakamoto will triumph, one way or another.

Quote from: tsontar
In my discussions with various members of Core, I have reached the conclusion that most of them simply disagree with the design of Bitcoin, which by design allows the consensus rules to be changed by a sufficient majority of miners and users, independent of what any group of technocrats wish. It is important to remember not to attribute malice where ignorance is equally explanatory. All of the devs I engage with are very strong in cryptography and computer science, which may make them less accepting of the fact that at its core, Bitcoin relies in the economic self-interest of the masses to govern consensus, not a group of educated technocrats. As an educated technocrat myself I can understand the sentiment. It would be better if math and only math governed Bitcoin. But that's not how Bitcoin is actually governed. At the end of the day, if social engineering and developer manipulation can kill Bitcoin, well then we're all betting on the wrong horse.
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
The Chinese eco-system can be our allies, even if some of them dont care about privacy. They have no interest in Coinbase or big western companies (and therefore by extension the US government) having undue influence in Bitcoin.

It only makes Bitcoin a harder sell to their own regulators and gov.
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.

My guess is that coinbase et al will attempt to start new development team but who knows.

I am confident these guys dont want Bitcoin under influence of 'cypherpunks'.  They see it as bad for business. They view cypherpunks as a nuisance and unrealistic idealists, but they are wrong.  

Off-course they would not say that though, and the block-size is a blown up issue that makes for a convenient opportunity to gather support they would not otherwise have.

I would strap in boys and girls because this will be a fight that will likely go on for decades. Personally I don't intend to back down. I intend to fight to win as much freedom and privacy as possible.  To make crypto-currencies as hard for governments to control as possible.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
If you truly care about fear mongering you should really have an issue with Hearns "crash landing" FUD.

... ironic that Hearn himself spectacularly crash-landed out of the project .... right into the banker's R3 talk-shop for has-beens.
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.
This is a low move gmaxwell attributing the drop in price with these statements coming from Gavin. I know people that have spent a lifetime doing price analysis, and they would never be so specific and certain in their conviction that such a singular event would have caused this. You are a smart guy you really should know better, unless you are now also claiming to be an expert in markets? This is not the first time I have seen you use such manipulative fear mongering tactics. I can not prove that you are being manipulative without knowing your motivations and the level of your sincerity. However I return to the thought that you really should know better.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Be a little patient... there is stuff happening I've promised not to talk about yet. You aren't the only one unhappy about the priorities of the Bitcoin Core project....
This statement by Gavin is exiting, it is good to know there is activity behind the scenes. After all there is a very large group of people now that do fundamentally disagree with the direction that Core is taking Bitcoin into. There are irreconcilable differences in ideology which do need to be resolved one way or another.
When hearn and Gavin announced XT there was an immediate and sharp drop in price. That was because of debate and release of XT. No point avoiding that for the sake of political correctness to not upset XT folk like you.



If you truly care about fear mongering you should really have an issue with Hearns "crash landing" FUD.


edit: price drop should not determine whether something is good or bad. It just so happens that XT is really bad though lol.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
This statement by Gavin is exiting

Frieidmanian slip?

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.
This is a low move gmaxwell attributing the drop in price with these statements coming from Gavin. I know people that have spent a lifetime doing price analysis, and they would never be so specific and certain in their conviction that such a singular event would have caused this. You are a smart guy you really should know better, unless you are now also claiming to be an expert in markets? This is not the first time I have seen you use such manipulative fear mongering tactics. I can not prove that you are being manipulative without knowing your motivations and the level of your sincerity. However I return to the thought that you really should know better.



Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Be a little patient... there is stuff happening I've promised not to talk about yet. You aren't the only one unhappy about the priorities of the Bitcoin Core project....
This statement by Gavin is exiting, it is good to know there is activity behind the scenes. After all there is a very large group of people now that do fundamentally disagree with the direction that Core is taking Bitcoin into. There are irreconcilable differences in ideology which do need to be resolved one way or another.

Yes, how exciting. A cabal of bankers, corporatists and butthurt developers colluding to make another attempt at disrupting existing economic consensus.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.

That's a lot of power packed into two sentences on an obscure internet forum.

How does a decentralized world-class monetary system become vulnerable to such power?

Wrong userbase.  That is to say, a userbase who are swayed by such games.  This userbase has been actively cultivated, and for the purposes of achieving exactly the phenomenon noted (and other unpleasant ones.)  I've been saying this for years as an argument against a focus on SPV, zero-conf solutions, UI eye-candy, etc.

To be more fair about it, it is (in my estimate) not the case that Bitcoin could have gotten the traction to get to eye-opening price levels without some fairly deceptive marketing.  This makes it unfair for me to sit around throwing stones...and it's why I'm posting this disclaimer.

The best strategy (imho) would have been to retreat back into a shell of focusing on rock solid no-frills defensibly (for the core of a subordinate chains ecosystem) after either the $200 or the $1200 spikes put Bitcoin on people's radar.  When (and if) distributed crypto-currencies are needed, people will come...and it's nearly inevitable to happen at some point.  The dis-advantage would be that the circulation would more strongly favor the well tuned-in individuals (hodlers.)  For my part, I would rather see Bitcoin more distributed among the constellation of dumb-shit kids, criminals, gamblers, druggies, etc than I would see it consolidated to the Winklevoss class.  Part of this is that they can be shaken out to provide liquidity more easily in times of need.  Liquidity problems are the Achilles Heal of assets in Bitcoin's class.  Our best hope is that the alternatives have more serious issues (e.g., hyperinflation, bail-ins, etc) and for periods of time that will almost certainly be the case.

hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Be a little patient... there is stuff happening I've promised not to talk about yet. You aren't the only one unhappy about the priorities of the Bitcoin Core project....
This statement by Gavin is exiting, it is good to know there is activity behind the scenes. After all there is a very large group of people now that do fundamentally disagree with the direction that Core is taking Bitcoin into. There are irreconcilable differences in ideology which do need to be resolved one way or another.

And what direction is that? Scaling Bitcoin wihout breaking it with a hard fork?
How is that bad?

You make it sound like Core just resurrected Hitler and reinstated the third reich.

 
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Veritas, your subtle misrepresentation of the facts is typically mind-bending: Gavin Andresen has been leading a prominent concern-trolling campaign for some months now, and his reputation has suffered immensely as a result of his politics-through-technical-issues nonsense. You know, the same problem you have with your public image.

That's his MO. Sometimes I get embarrassed for him when I review his previous trolling rants. If you want some mild entertainment go back and look at the BIP 16/17 WWE SmackDown between the trolls of thunder - Andresen vs LukeJr.  
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Veritas, your subtle misrepresentation of the facts is typically mind-bending: Gavin Andresen has been leading a prominent concern-trolling campaign for some months now, and his reputation has suffered immensely as a result of his politics-through-technical-issues nonsense. You know, the same problem you have with your public image.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.
This is a low move gmaxwell attributing the drop in price with these statements coming from Gavin. I know people that have spent a lifetime doing price analysis, and they would never be so specific and certain in their conviction that such a singular event would have caused this. You are a smart guy you really should know better, unless you are now also claiming to be an expert in markets? This is not the first time I have seen you use such manipulative fear mongering tactics. I can not prove that you are being manipulative without knowing your motivations and the level of your sincerity. However I return to the thought that you really should know better.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Be a little patient... there is stuff happening I've promised not to talk about yet. You aren't the only one unhappy about the priorities of the Bitcoin Core project....
This statement by Gavin is exiting, it is good to know there is activity behind the scenes. After all there is a very large group of people now that do fundamentally disagree with the direction that Core is taking Bitcoin into. There are irreconcilable differences in ideology which do need to be resolved one way or another.
legendary
Activity: 1222
Merit: 1016
Live and Let Live
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

Then you go and read what Gavin says:

Quote from: gavinandresen
60,000 $/€/£ wouldn't actually go very far-- good software people are expensive.

Be a little patient... there is stuff happening I've promised not to talk about yet. You aren't the only one unhappy about the priorities of the Bitcoin Core project....

where he also says:
http://gavinandresen.ninja/segregated-witness-is-cool

ie: "Segregated Witness is cool, but I'm smarter than Pieter Wuille and know what is the most important priorities for Bitcoin."


Gavin posted his "Segregated Witness is Cool" after...
@gmaxwell famous mailing list post:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html

Gavin then replies with this somewhat uninformed reply on the mailing list:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011877.html

That basically says: "I'm not as smart as Pieter, so I'll just say that his solution "will just complicate consensus-critical code" (using a soft fork)."

Quote from: gavinandresen
Why segwitness as a soft fork? Stuffing the segwitness merkle tree in the
coinbase is messy and will just complicate consensus-critical code (as
opposed to making the right side of the merkle tree in block.version=5
blocks the segwitness data).


It is my hypothesis that Gavin is using flax technical issues as a political wedge.

Now, I'm a brave man, but I'm not brave enough to go out in public saying that Pieter Wuille is wrong on a technical choice for Bitcoin. Instead, if I was concerned with a particular set of engineering choices I would first ask him to state is reasoning for that particular choice. Where I would be no-doubt appeased.

Gavin and Co' just go out like lol-cows stating how their way of engineering Bitcoin is so much superior; They have never asked "Could you please explain your reasoning for this choice", rather they state something like: "It is much better to do it my way".

Hence, this is my main argument that they are using technical issues for political purposes; as they seem to have no desire to learn - They pick the contrary on any possible technical decision, and then use it as a argument for 'compromise'.


here is a little humor for you all:

  • Gavin / Mike:  We must scale Bitcoin or it will fail!!! We cannot have full blocks.
  • Core Dev: We are busy trying to make Bitcoin not fail right now! Thank God Block are not full! - No increasing the Block size doesn't solve this issue
  • Miners: There is NO WAY we would accept 20MB!
  • Gavin: Ok, I've talked with the miners, they say that they will 'agree' with 8MB blocks!
  • Core Dev: NO! Go Away: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6341
  • Gavin / Mike + Trolls: "The Core Developers don't care about the future of Bitcoin!!!!!!!111"
  • Gavin / Mike:  We love Bitcoin, use XT + BIP101 !!!!!
  • ... (huge Bitcoin culture war is created) ...
  • ... (Mike officially becomes a LOLCOW on the mailing list) ...
  • Miners: There is NO WAY we would accept any of BIP101
  • Gavin:  BIP 101 is dead! But I still know how to scale Bitcoin Best!!!!!111
  • Core Dev: Um, no, why after all your past hair-brained ideas, suddenly you know what is best for all of us!?
  • Gavin: We are going to find a compromise!


staff
Activity: 4270
Merit: 1209
I support freedom of choice
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.
"Look everywhere but me"
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
Just in case you were getting used to the upward moving price; looks like it's time for a new drama-dump: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3wj0du/gavin_we_want_to_donated_to_you/cxwx4hx  Sad

I am actually starting to get more then a little peeved at the orbital bombing.  It's like every time Core really gets into a good productive flow (and, coincidentally, the market start pepping up) we get a new wave of surprising uninformed negativity rained down from above.

That's a lot of power packed into two sentences on an obscure internet forum.

How does a decentralized world-class monetary system become vulnerable to such power?
legendary
Activity: 1222
Merit: 1016
Live and Let Live
I miss MPOE-PR.  She added far more content to the forum than 99% of the people registered after her.

We are left with Lol Cows of far inferior quality.   Undecided

I agree, if you are here for the 'content' then she was far more fun than usual grazing animals that inhabit here.  Wink
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