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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 89. (Read 378993 times)

full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
^this guy is a bot.

that's what I'm thinking.

IP address probably links to one of these filipino bot farms

Or maybe best sure option is that is an account directly controlled by the XT devs, this explains why doesn't give up at the end

P.s. i seriously hope this thread will end soon because is becoming a pain to see and try to say opinions thanks to veritassapere going around as i told and without giving a damm
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
^this guy is a bot.

that's what I'm thinking.

IP address probably links to one of these filipino bot farms
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
^this guy is a bot.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
He seems to want majority fiat, or sufficiently aggressive minority fiat  Grin

Some warped minds in the XT side.
Says the person who wants a top down approach to Bitcoin governance, I wonder if you see the irony of your position. You are mischaracterizing my views, I do not want fiat and I do not want a minority fork. Giving people the choice certainly does come with inherent problems but it is still much better then any top down approach, since a top down approach does invalidate some of the advantages of Bitcoin which are inherent in its open and free design. Top down governance might seem fine now but over the long term it will cause massive problems that a bottom up approach would have avoided. Which is why the trend in political thought over the last few centuries has been to further divide power and distribute it, the ideal of democracy is that power does come from the bottom up, this ideal is often not realized in modern democracies for more complex reasons but these principles do remain. If Bitcoin is money for the people by the people then power does need to come from the bottom or grassroots upwards which would then be reflected by multiple client implementations which the people would then be free to choose from.
 
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I'm defending the only Bitcoin that ever existed vs the esoteric ideal you have that I frankly don't think it would ever work, but you are free to try it on your own blockchain.
I am defending the original Bitcoin, your concept of top down governance is not how Bitcoin works technically, you might be able to enforce it through a culture of believe, but that does not change the ultimate reality which is that if the economic majority turns against Core, it will be left in the dust. You can deny this all you like but the truth is on my side.

Since day 0 Bitcoin has worked like this. The very concept of Bitcoin consensus is that if you choose to ignore it you are left out. It used to be even stricter than this when nodes were all miners, then it directly lost them money to try to disagree with the dev-imposed code. Bitcoin was even MORE strict in the beginning than it is now, that protocol rules have some degree of freedom thanks to the hard work by Core.

You seem to have no idea how parameters and characteristics have ALWAYS been set in Bitcoin.

I think that Bitcoin should be governed through a bottom up approach since this is what most closely resembles the principles of decentralization and freedom. I also think that this is how Bitcoin was designed to function and how it technically functions today. This can be subverted purely through the culture and believe of its participants, it seems like you are now actually advocating such a believe by saying that individual users should not make these decisions for themselves independently.

At least it is clear now where you stand, you want their to be top down governance of Bitcoin, I want bottom up governance. These are fundamentally incompatible concepts. I advocate freedom of choice which could lead to a split when fundamental disagreements arise. You seem to be advocating totalitarianism, tyranny of the majority or even tyranny of a minority, since without using proof of work as a way to measure consensus, consensus will be whatever Core says it is. Their governance might be benign but I refuse to entrust the future of Bitcoin with such a small technocratic elite.

People can decide for themselves what kind of a Bitcoin they want and by extension what kind of a world they want. Even if you insist that people should not have this choice over the future of Bitcoin it does not change that people do have this freedom of choice. So everyone please choose wisely, consider the advantages of freedom.

More ramblings and taking ideals out of context.

If you cannot predict what will Bitcoin's characteristics be in a year's time, then it's shit as money and as a store of value, no matter the degree of agreement redditards achieve. Blocksize fortunately doesn't go so deep, but still if you don't know whether desktop nodes will survive next year, that uncertainty is definitely very damaging for the credibility of the system. The current levels of scalability, we knew them all along.

Your understanding of monetarism seems extremely superficial. Free markets are not dominated by sufficiently aggressive minorities, that would make them non-free by definition.

It's not just Core saying no to BIP101 or XT, it's the miners too, and the vast majority of the nodes. The message couldn't be clearer, are you suggesting it's fairer to have a sufficiently aggressive minority overrule that?
You are changing the subject, the majority of miners do support an increase in the blocksize, this however is irrelevant in regards to us discussing what we think Bitcoin is and should become.

I do not mean to be so dramatic but these two opposing conceptions of Bitcoin governance are the equivalent between totalitarianism and freedom. I am confident that I am on the right side of history.

LOL "changing the subject". Also, XT's governance is a lot more totalitarian than Core. You are defending totalitarianism, and being a dramatic cry-baby about it.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
The nodes should determine what the value is, not the developers. But the software itself in the nodes should make the determination, not the node's human operators. I've been saying this all along; dynamic blocksize limit is the best solution to me. And that's not what you're saying at all, Peter.
You are essentially saying that people should not have the free choice. Someone does have to choose however, you can not escape this fact, under the scenario you describe it is obvious that the Core developers would choose for us. They would effectively control and decide on the future of Bitcoin under this model. I strongly disagree with this approach. I do think that this might be at the crux of our disagreement. It most certainly is an ideological disagreement, even if you disagree with that and claim truth and scientific validity it does not change that for me this is an ideological issue. In political thinking the question is often asked of whom decides, in the case of Bitcoin I think that the people or what is referred to as the economic majority should decide.

In order to achieve what you are suggesting you would have to either radically change the protocol and take the freedom out of the protocol, which i think is actually impossible to do since people can still choose to run it or not, unless you combine Bitcoin with the power and force of the state. The other way to achieve what you think would be the ideal governance model of Bitcoin would be to convince enough people that they do not have a choice or that they should defer their decision to the experts or authority instead. Neither of these scenarios seems particularly appealing to me so I definitely favor a bottom up approach where ultimately it is the users/peers that decide on the future of Bitcoin collectively in a distributed and decentralized manner, even if that means that we might sometimes not be able to agree with each other which would most likely lead to inevitable splits in the future.

This is the price of freedom, I can see how having a totalitarian approach can be appealing, no politics just centralized control by the technocrats, no splits just complete consensus and everyone has to agree with the center all of the time and for the rest of time. If enough people believed this it could work, but I am a freedom loving person so I would not want to be part of such a totalitarian construct.

Well, let's let extend your approach. Shall we give users control over:

  • The RAM size of the transaction pool
  • The 21 million coin limit
  • What the interval is between average block times
  • Which transactions they're willing to permit in the blockchain
  • The dust output threshold
 

If you let users vote on those things with their bitcoin nodes, I predict "Bad Things". The consensus rules are chosen carefully by the developers because of the effect they have on Bitcoin's monetary properties, your suggestion to allow an open vote on those rules is just an invitation to bad actors to promote self-destructive rules.

Oh, you're saying Bitcoin has failed if it can't withstand that kind of vector for self-determination? Well, that's why that vector doesn't work now and never has, and what protects the network and it's userbase from that method of attack is the strength of the consensus rules. Anything that threatens the consensus rules is not so great when they're the primary protection from bad actors altering the monetary properties of Bitcoin out of recognition. Funny how you keep pushing that this is somehow not a problem, somehow the most positive thing that could happen.

Your solution should really be to launch a competitor to Bitcoin that shares your vision. You have been in a slim minority for some time, and no-one really wants what you're selling. Why not move on and convince people with this great version of Bitcoin that you're wanting to change to? Remember that arguments about how XT is somehow the "original" don't wash; it's small/shrinking and always was, it needs a hard fork in the blockchain whereas the supposed interloper currently has no hard forks proposed. Why won't XT stand on it's own, if it's so appealing? Why the need to assimilate the Bitcoin miners?
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
He seems to want majority fiat, or sufficiently aggressive minority fiat  Grin

Some warped minds in the XT side.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
that does not change the ultimate reality which is that if the economic majority turns against Core, it will be left in the dust.
At what point do you draw the line to stop Bitcoin from becoming fiat by economic majority?
I do not think this will happen because the economic majority would be disincentivized to change parameters like the supply of Bitcoin for instance. The truth is that nobody really knows because there is no historical precedent, theoretically at least this is how it should work. This is the game theory and psychology that Bitcoin relies on for its continued operation after all.

If this did happen however because it is what the economic majority chooses then we can always still find refuge in an alternative cryptocurrency or a chain fork of Bitcoin. If such a change was introduced it would most likely cause a chain fork after all. Love it or hate it, this is what freedom looks like.
donator
Activity: 1617
Merit: 1012
that does not change the ultimate reality which is that if the economic majority turns against Core, it will be left in the dust.

At what point do you draw the line to stop Bitcoin from becoming fiat by economic majority?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
BIPs are dead enders anyway. Roll Eyes


Quote
Of substantial primacy is the fact that there is far greater client heterogeneity on the Bitcoin network than the developers of the Bitcoin Core client would have people believe, and Bitcoin network client variety is the greatest among miners and other infrastructure operators. Running the latest version of "Bitcoin Core" is aberrant behavior among miners who largely use bespoke software, including software that does not fully validate blocks as typical full Bitcoin nodes do. Mining is competitive and pool operators compete for any degree of optimization they can because even 1 megabyte blocks are large enough to introduce substantial delays if they are fully verified before mining on top of them.

Further it is impossible to depend on any sort of voting system to implement forking changes to miner behavior in a smooth manner. There is no way to actually confirm that the real behavior of actual clients on the Bitcoin network conforms to expectations which may follow from the version strings the client broadcasts.

This incident highlights the importance of the Bitcoin Foundation's work to maintain a stable reference implementation Bitcoin network client capable of operating as a full node. With the influence of Gavin Andresen and his fellow developers of the Bitcoin Core client waning to new lows as their attempts to force misguided efforts at "Bitcoin Improvement" fail through broken methods, assumptions, and implementations it is time for any last pretense of Bitcoin Core's development having any actual relationship to the actual living core of the Bitcoin Network to be discarded.


http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/


Ergo BIP66 forking fiasco: http://qntra.net/2015/07/another-post-bip-66-fork-dies-after-3-blocks/



Thx for teh lulz tho you buncha circle jerking reddit turds.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
To be honest I am shocked that you are even trying to defend a top down approach for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not the same as gold, it is better, we can sent it across the world with low cost and its fundamental properties can be changed unlike gold. Bitcoin is both a commodity and a currency, it is both a payment channel and a distributed database. It can do all of these things without compromising the fundamental principles of decentralization and freedom. These different capabilities of Bitcoin actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion. I think you are constructing a false dichotomy by saying that we must choose between these different features.
I'm defending the only Bitcoin that ever existed vs the esoteric ideal you have that I frankly don't think it would ever work, but you are free to try it on your own blockchain.
I am defending the original Bitcoin, your concept of top down governance is not how Bitcoin works technically, you might be able to enforce it through a culture of believe, but that does not change the ultimate reality which is that if the economic majority turns against Core, it will be left in the dust. You can deny this all you like but the truth is on my side.

I think that Bitcoin should be governed through a bottom up approach since this is what most closely resembles the principles of decentralization and freedom. I also think that this is how Bitcoin was designed to function and how it technically functions today. This can be subverted purely through the culture and believe of its participants, it seems like you are now actually advocating such a believe by saying that individual users should not make these decisions for themselves independently.

At least it is clear now where you stand, you want their to be top down governance of Bitcoin, I want bottom up governance. These are fundamentally incompatible concepts. I advocate freedom of choice which could lead to a split when fundamental disagreements arise. You seem to be advocating totalitarianism, tyranny of the majority or even tyranny of a minority, since without using proof of work as a way to measure consensus, consensus will be whatever Core says it is. Their governance might be benign but I refuse to entrust the future of Bitcoin with such a small technocratic elite.

People can decide for themselves what kind of a Bitcoin they want and by extension what kind of a world they want. Even if you insist that people should not have this choice over the future of Bitcoin it does not change that people do have this freedom of choice. So everyone please choose wisely, consider the advantages of freedom.

It's not just Core saying no to BIP101 or XT, it's the miners too, and the vast majority of the nodes. The message couldn't be clearer, are you suggesting it's fairer to have a sufficiently aggressive minority overrule that?
You are changing the subject, the majority of miners do support an increase in the blocksize, this however is irrelevant in regards to us discussing what we think Bitcoin is and should become.

I do not mean to be so dramatic but these two opposing conceptions of Bitcoin governance are the equivalent between totalitarianism and freedom. I am confident that I am on the right side of history.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
To be honest I am shocked that you are even trying to defend a top down approach for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not the same as gold, it is better, we can sent it across the world with low cost and its fundamental properties can be changed unlike gold. Bitcoin is both a commodity and a currency, it is both a payment channel and a distributed database. It can do all of these things without compromising the fundamental principles of decentralization and freedom. These different capabilities of Bitcoin actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion. I think you are constructing a false dichotomy by saying that we must choose between these different features.

I'm defending the only Bitcoin that ever existed vs the esoteric ideal you have that I frankly don't think it would ever work, but you are free to try it on your own blockchain.

I think that Bitcoin should be governed through a bottom up approach since this is what most closely resembles the principles of decentralization and freedom. I also think that this is how Bitcoin was designed to function and how it technically functions today. This can be subverted purely through the culture and believe of its participants, it seems like you are now actually advocating such a believe by saying that individual users should not make these decisions for themselves independently.

At least it is clear now where you stand, you want their to be top down governance of Bitcoin, I want bottom up governance. These are fundamentally incompatible concepts. I advocate freedom of choice which could lead to a split when fundamental disagreements arise. You seem to be advocating totalitarianism, tyranny of the majority or even tyranny of a minority, since without using proof of work as a way to measure consensus, consensus will be whatever Core says it is. Their governance might be benign but I refuse to entrust the future of Bitcoin with such a small technocratic elite.

People can decide for themselves what kind of a Bitcoin they want and by extension what kind of a world they want. Even if you insist that people should not have this choice over the future of Bitcoin it does not change that people do have this freedom of choice. So everyone please choose wisely, consider the advantages of freedom.

You are taking concepts and ideals completely out of context.

It's not just Core saying no to BIP101 or XT, it's the miners too, and the vast majority of the nodes. The message couldn't be clearer, are you suggesting it's fairer to have a sufficiently aggressive minority overrule that?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Bitcoin was designed so that its code-defined parameters couldn't be redefined by users ("bottom up") and this is a feature. Imagine if gold could be redefined by holders of gold merely by their agreement. It would be the anti-gold: gold works as a store of value because its properties cannot be changed in a feasible manner (and certainly you cannot alter the gold of others no matter how much support your "ideas" have).

Bitcoin's "physical properties" are its code. When, like in the case of the blocksize cap, there is a general agreement that one of these "physical properties" of Bitcoin should be changed, it's important to understand the contradiction this entails to something that is intended to be money/store of value to introduce changes to it. Bitcoin is in this sense in a strong contradiction of being both still experimental software that requires changes, and that ideally it would need zero changes so the "physical properties" analogy of "digital gold" stands on its own.

The problem here is not one of ideologies, as largely (except Mike Hearn and an increasing number of mainstreamers, who are socialists and statists) the ideologies of bitcoiners are strongly for free market capitalism.

It's a problem of vision / understanding. Either see Bitcoin as a payment channel tool or as a distributed database, not money and not commodity, in which case obviously introducing major changes and revisions is a "software" thing. For this school of thought, destroying the underlying assumption that the main properties of Bitcoin cannot be changed is not a big deal. This kills Bitcoin as a store of value. I'd argue that some even want this to happen. This is why I'm not that surprised when you say that if people want, let them introduce inflation in Bitcoin and stuff like that. Or when you interchangeably talk about forks of the chain and forks of the code.

The block size limit like any other parameters of Bitcoin were set by either Satoshi or the devs after him. This is "2" as you said above, and this is the way Bitcoin as we know it. The market balance mechanisms were also set up by developers. You blow up the stability of these mechanisms and you have made Bitcoin utterly pointless. The very system is made so that users running arbitrary protocols just doesn't work for them. What you suggest by "1" is political money and it will never work. Why don't you just try it separately and leave the Bitcoin network alone?
To be honest I am shocked that you are even trying to defend a top down approach for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not the same as gold, it is better, we can sent it across the world with low cost and its fundamental properties can be changed unlike gold. Bitcoin is both a commodity and a currency, it is both a payment channel and a distributed database. It can do all of these things without compromising the fundamental principles of decentralization and freedom. These different capabilities of Bitcoin actually reinforce each other in a synergistic fashion. I think you are constructing a false dichotomy by saying that we must choose between these different features.

I think that Bitcoin should be governed through a bottom up approach since this is what most closely resembles the principles of decentralization and freedom. I also think that this is how Bitcoin was designed to function and how it technically functions today. This can be subverted purely through the culture and believe of its participants, it seems like you are now actually advocating such a believe by saying that individual users should not make these decisions for themselves independently.

At least it is clear now where you stand, you want their to be top down governance of Bitcoin, I want bottom up governance. These are fundamentally incompatible concepts. I advocate freedom of choice which could lead to a split when fundamental disagreements arise. You seem to be advocating totalitarianism, tyranny of the majority or even tyranny of a minority, since without using proof of work as a way to measure consensus, consensus will be whatever Core says it is. Their governance might be benign but I refuse to entrust the future of Bitcoin with such a small technocratic elite.

People can decide for themselves what kind of a Bitcoin they want and by extension what kind of a world they want. Even if you insist that people should not have this choice over the future of Bitcoin it does not change that people do have this freedom of choice. So everyone please choose wisely, consider the advantages of freedom.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The developers aren't forcing anyone to run the code. This means freedom. The rest is useless blabber
Both you and HDbuck are actually missing the point that I was making. Which is that the economic majority decides on the future of Bitcoin. However if the economic majority does not believe in the principles of freedom and decentralization then Bitcoin would start to reflect this. Bitcoin reflects the will of its participants, therefore if the will of its participants does not favor decentralization and freedom then Bitcoin could become less free and more centralized. This is where chain forks might actually be very useful in preserving our freedom even if that is not what the rest of the world desires. This is a hypothetical future that might become more real as more people adopt Bitcoin, since this would water down the ideological demographic of Bitcoin users.

Another important point that I was making was that muuyuu and Carlton are advocating a top down approach to governance whereas I am advocating a bottom up approach, which is an important distinction and very important for Bitcoin going into the future.
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
The developers aren't forcing anyone to run the code. This means freedom. The rest is useless blabber  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
^ you have freed00m choice to use it or gtfo of bitcoin.

simple. no one is forcing anyone.. Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
The free-market can solve a vast majority of problems better than central planning can, and given a proper chance to prove it, likely all problems. But a free-market of software nodes making the decision is the ideal model for governing aspects like blocksize; letting node operators choose freely just invites people with bad incentives to abuse the freedom. People like Peter R try to gently imply they want the former, when in truth, they're proposing the latter.
You are saying that people should not have this freedom because you think they will abuse it?

When you allow people to have freedom, you also need to allow them to make bad choices. You cant have it both ways, it is the consequence of freedom. I personally think it is worth it, since it brings about more good then harm overall in the greater society and civilization over the long term.

I don't "think" this, it's an observable fact.
It seems that there are two different ideologies in play:

1.  It should be easy for people to express their free choice regarding the block size limit because Bitcoin is ultimately a product of the market (bottom-up / emergent phenomenon).

2.  The block size limit should be set by a group of experts because people will make poor choices (top-down / policy tool).

You cannot determine only those 2 viewpoints from what I said, Peter, because I subscribe to neither.

The nodes should determine what the value is, not the developers. But the software itself in the nodes should make the determination, not the node's human operators. I've been saying this all along; dynamic blocksize limit is the best solution to me. And that's not what you're saying at all, Peter.
You are essentially saying that people should not have the free choice. Someone does have to choose however, you can not escape this fact, under the scenario you describe it is obvious that the Core developers would choose for us. They would effectively control and decide on the future of Bitcoin under this model. I strongly disagree with this approach. I do think that this might be at the crux of our disagreement. It most certainly is an ideological disagreement, even if you disagree with that and claim truth and scientific validity it does not change that for me this is an ideological issue. In political thinking the question is often asked of whom decides, in the case of Bitcoin I think that the people or what is referred to as the economic majority should decide.

In order to achieve what you are suggesting you would have to either radically change the protocol and take the freedom out of the protocol, which i think is actually impossible to do since people can still choose to run it or not, unless you combine Bitcoin with the power and force of the state. The other way to achieve what you think would be the ideal governance model of Bitcoin would be to convince enough people that they do not have a choice or that they should defer their decision to the experts or authority instead. Neither of these scenarios seems particularly appealing to me so I definitely favor a bottom up approach where ultimately it is the users/peers that decide on the future of Bitcoin collectively in a distributed and decentralized manner, even if that means that we might sometimes not be able to agree with each other which would most likely lead to inevitable splits in the future.

This is the price of freedom, I can see how having a totalitarian approach can be appealing, no politics just centralized control by the technocrats, no splits just complete consensus and everyone has to agree with the center all of the time and for the rest of time. If enough people believed this it could work, but I am a freedom loving person so I would not want to be part of such a totalitarian construct.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
They posted this yesterday:

http://i.imgur.com/Uo3vFvC.png

Do you guys think this is satire or actually serious?

I can't even Poe's Law anymore, since the Gavinistas.

Look at this circlejerking; it would be impossible to ridicule or parody because it's already beyond absurd.

https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3sapgm/psa_rbtc_will_only_succeed_if_we_all_participate/

lel

Quote
If we want /r/BTC to be a success, we all need to chip in by Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy submitting interesting links, and sharing interesting comments Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy on links submitted by others. Simply reading the content here is not enough. Together we can make this the most enjoyable Bitcoin sub-reddit in the world!

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
They posted this yesterday:

http://i.imgur.com/Uo3vFvC.png

Do you guys think this is satire or actually serious?

I can't even Poe's Law anymore, since the Gavinistas.

Look at this circlejerking; it would be impossible to ridicule or parody because it's already beyond absurd.

https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3sapgm/psa_rbtc_will_only_succeed_if_we_all_participate/
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
They posted this yesterday:



Do you guys think this is satire or actually serious?
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