Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform - page 25.

zhoutong

vip

Activity: 490

Merit: 502

Quote from: zhoutong on September 19, 2011, 05:37:45 PM

Quote from: gyverlb on September 19, 2011, 05:27:48 PM

Hi, sent a mail to [email protected] yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD Market -1.0 - Canceled Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...

Yes, there was something wrong with support. I didn't receive your email. (Now it should be working fine.)

I have looked up your account, and it seems that you really only have 34 BTC in your position. Can you please verify your orders again?

BTW, it's advantageous to you because Bitcoinica implements a net-accounting system. It seems that this is a lost trade, so you should have lost less if your position is 34 instead of 35.

Such mathematical errors shouldn't happen at Bitcoinica. But yesterday's maintenance has caused some database locking issues (duplicated orders, etc). We haven't seen obviously wrong numbers though.

In Bitcoinica here we have a 24/7 system checking for data integrity. Chances are we know immediately when there's something wrong with your orders or positions. The system can fix vast majority of the errors. So far we have processed over 1.1 million web requests, and error rate is less than 0.01%.

I (the system administrator) will receive an email warning when the error rate is above 0.01%, then I will take a look at the problem closely.

zhoutong

vip

Activity: 490

Merit: 502

Quote from: gyverlb on September 19, 2011, 05:27:48 PM

Hi, sent a mail to [email protected] yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD Market -1.0 - Canceled Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...

Yes, there was something wrong with support. I didn't receive your email. (Now it should be working fine.)

I have looked up your account, and it seems that you really only have 34 BTC in your position. Can you please verify your orders again?

BTW, it's advantageous to you because Bitcoinica implements a net-accounting system. It seems that this is a lost trade, so you should have lost less if your position is 34 instead of 35.

Such mathematical errors shouldn't happen at Bitcoinica. But yesterday's maintenance has caused some database locking issues (duplicated orders, etc). We haven't seen obviously wrong numbers though.

gyverlb

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 1000

Hi, sent a mail to [email protected] yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD Market -1.0 - Canceled Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Okay. I think it may have been in the middle of a spike. Just kinda scary for it to stay Active after minutes, since there's no telling what the price could be (at least that's how it felt at the time).

Apart from that, thanks for the service.

zhoutong

vip

Activity: 490

Merit: 502

Quote from: johnj on September 19, 2011, 02:03:58 PM

Is it supposed to take this long to execute a market order?

I apologize for the problem.

Our system is a queue-based system. With these processes by sequence: Ticking -> Matching -> Hedging -> ...

We currently have two queues. But it's possible to have two queues stuck together (especially if there's huge amount of deposits/withdrawals or uncertainties on the connections to Mt. Gox server).

In this case, your prices can still be protected because the price will not update if your orders can't be executed. We assign forced liquidation and hedging as our first priority, matching as second and ticking is the last. So when the queues are stuck, it's more likely to get your order executed rather than have the price updated.

I think this can offer you some protection.

I will investigate this issue in detail by looking at the logs. And I will try to avoid such kind of queue congestion in the future.

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: zhoutong on September 19, 2011, 05:06:52 PM

You're placing a Stop order.

...

Maybe you want to place limit order instead?

I did the same thing 3 times yesterday.

Kinda why I want spread labels, I tend to get lots of things backwards.

-But still, why would it take minutes for a market order?

zhoutong

vip

Activity: 490

Merit: 502

Quote from: BitMagic on September 19, 2011, 01:49:37 PM

Zhoutong, What's going on with this?

Code:

BTCUSD	Stop	-0.75 	$5.7000	Executed @ 5.3103	1 minute ago
BTCUSD	Stop	-0.5    $5.4100	Executed @ 5.385	12 minutes ago

None of these transaction are huge deal on a $1 investment, and I might understand the last transaction if there was a discrete jump in bid, but this should definitely not be happening on the first order. Explanations, please, both regarding the problem with the first, and the reasons (if no "problem") with the second.

Seriously, if this is a regular possibility, your service just isn't robust enough to trust.

You're placing a Stop order.

Stop order is executed when the market price is below your specified price (for selling). In this case, you are telling the system that you want to set a stop loss at $5.7. When the market rate is only 5.3, it should be executed immediately.

Maybe you want to place limit order instead?

(Some people have asked me why I haven't labeled the execution criteria clearly. Actually I have, you can refer to the placing order dialog for the explanation of various order types. Anyway, a bit Forex trading knowledge is required because this is something new.)

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: speeder on September 19, 2011, 02:33:58 PM

They are having a liquidity problem, because people just open their positions but put no limit orders except stop orders.

The market orders remain open because there are no counterpart.

As they get into Tradehill and get more costumers, this will solve by itself.

If you place several market orders, and watch they get completed, you will notice you can bump up or down the prices really fast (for lack of liquidity).

All I can tell you people is: Patience, lots of patience... When leveraged 5 times, remember some "medium-hitters" can become heavy-hitters easily (myself included... when I got into bitcoinica, I did a too big market order, and saw a spike of 20 cents caused by my own order... while at mtgox I would move only 2 or 3 cents... but also looking in mtgox order book, maybe it would moved even more than 20 cents...)

It's a nice guess, but there's no transparency, so who knows? Also, regardless of the "liquidity problem," they're going to have a hard time retaining customers if "slippage" results in 10% swings above and beyond stop-loss contingencies, regardless of the reasons.

speeder

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 501

PredX - AI-Powered Prediction Market

They are having a liquidity problem, because people just open their positions but put no limit orders except stop orders.

The market orders remain open because there are no counterpart.

As they get into Tradehill and get more costumers, this will solve by itself.

If you place several market orders, and watch they get completed, you will notice you can bump up or down the prices really fast (for lack of liquidity).

All I can tell you people is: Patience, lots of patience... When leveraged 5 times, remember some "medium-hitters" can become heavy-hitters easily (myself included... when I got into bitcoinica, I did a too big market order, and saw a spike of 20 cents caused by my own order... while at mtgox I would move only 2 or 3 cents... but also looking in mtgox order book, maybe it would moved even more than 20 cents...)

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: BitMagic on September 19, 2011, 02:23:14 PM

I understand what is happening here, but honestly, given the data I'm looking at, I don't trust Bitcoinica's algorithm to adequately conduct trades without some shady practices here.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel the same way. Having trades not execute when they should, or market trades be active for minutes... kinda scary.

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: speeder on September 19, 2011, 02:16:14 PM

Quote from: BitMagic on September 19, 2011, 02:02:28 PM

Quote from: speeder on September 19, 2011, 01:58:21 PM

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

bitcoinica stop orders are triggered by the bid ask, but they are executed at whatever value it can. Even market orders do not execute at current market price (only the leverage is calculated... thus yes, you can get negative trading balance).

And when you complained, and posted that photo of (1 minute ago), that was exactly when I am seeing a spike to 5.6 on mtgox live Wink

A spike triggering a buy run on bitcoinica is not unlikely (in fact, MANY people lsot money this way... NEVER attempt to trade at bitcoinica during a mtgox spike, there will be massive spread and slippage... I always wait for the price to settle).

You must be looking at some other graph, 36 min ago (which is up to date time on that order) was nowhere near 5.6, even. and that's already a 1.7% spread. Last time it was close to 6 was 45 min ago.

I understand what is happening here, but honestly, given the data I'm looking at, I don't trust Bitcoinica's algorithm to adequately conduct trades without some shady practices here.

speeder

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 501

PredX - AI-Powered Prediction Market

Quote from: BitMagic on September 19, 2011, 02:02:28 PM

Quote from: speeder on September 19, 2011, 01:58:21 PM

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

bitcoinica stop orders are triggered by the bid ask, but they are executed at whatever value it can. Even market orders do not execute at current market price (only the leverage is calculated... thus yes, you can get negative trading balance).

And when you complained, and posted that photo of (1 minute ago), that was exactly when I am seeing a spike to 5.6 on mtgox live Wink

A spike triggering a buy run on bitcoinica is not unlikely (in fact, MANY people lsot money this way... NEVER attempt to trade at bitcoinica during a mtgox spike, there will be massive spread and slippage... I always wait for the price to settle).

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Is it supposed to take this long to execute a market order?

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: speeder on September 19, 2011, 01:58:21 PM

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

speeder

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 501

PredX - AI-Powered Prediction Market

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

slippage might make sense on the latter, but the former transaction is definitely a bug. Ask was never anywhere near 5.7.

speeder

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 501

PredX - AI-Powered Prediction Market

Quote from: BitMagic on September 19, 2011, 01:49:37 PM

Zhoutong, What's going on with this?

Code:

BTCUSD	Stop	-0.75 	$5.7000	Executed @ 5.3103	1 minute ago
BTCUSD	Stop	-0.5    $5.4100	Executed @ 5.385	12 minutes ago

None of these transaction are huge deal on a $1 investment, but this should not be happening. Explanations, please.

Probably slippage, but waiting for his answer is better Wink

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Zhoutong, What's going on with this?

Code:

BTCUSD	Stop	-0.75 	$5.7000	Executed @ 5.3103	1 minute ago
BTCUSD	Stop	-0.5    $5.4100	Executed @ 5.385	12 minutes ago

None of these transaction are huge deal on a $1 investment, and I might understand the last transaction if there was a discrete jump in bid, but this should definitely not be happening on the first order. Explanations, please, both regarding the problem with the first, and the reasons (if no "problem") with the second.

Seriously, if this is a regular possibility, your service just isn't robust enough to trust.

evoorhees

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1023

Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: MemoryDealers on September 16, 2011, 11:36:24 PM

In a free market, Zhoutong is not the king of Bitcoin, but he IS the king of Bitcoinica.

He can ban, or allow, anyone to use the site for whatever reason he pleases.

Just as the rest of us can decide to use, or not use, Bitcoinica for whatever reason we please.

This is the only moral and fair system of property rights.

If only more people understood this principle, the world would be a happier place =)

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Could you label your spread? Such as:

Or some other kind of label. I tend to get numbers backwards, so it helps me to have a visual anchor.

Topic: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform - page 25. (Read 51103 times)