Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power

fxsurfer

jr. member

Activity: 274

Merit: 2

Quote from: imjustp on October 31, 2017, 06:17:21 AM

I think you'll find that FIAT currency is exactly what you explain with your post. Since all countries decided to move away from the gold standard pretty much every currency is realistically worthless.

You must educate yourself about the basics of banking system because this statement of yours shows that you have utterly no clue about how the accounting mechanics of bank credit creation works.

When financial corporation, such as a bank, grants a loan to a customer, and thus creates new money, the loan contract is shown as an increase in assets: the bank now has an additional claim on debtors — this is the borrower's legal obligation to repay the loan (which is secured by the collateral of specified movable or immovable property). But, together with the increase in assets, the newly created money appears as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank's balance sheet. IOWs, whenever some firm or person receives the newly created money from the borrower's bank account, the value of this money comes from the fact that it represents the bank's legal liability which is backed by borrower's legal obligation to repay the loan. So, when banks create money, this money is backed by either - legally enforceable obligation of borrowers to repay their loans or the collateral of specified movable or immovable property that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan.

That is why, if a situation occurs where nobody wants to accept fiat money in exchange for goods and services, those who received the loans are legally forced to accept it, otherwise they would be unable to settle their obligations to the bank and a legal action would be taken against them or the bank would seize the collateral to recoup its losses. Additionally, the value of fiat money comes from the fact that it is legal tender for all debts, public and private, which is especially important today when countries have high tax-to-GDP ratio.

So saying that fiat money is worthless, simply shows the lack of understanding of how legal, monetary and banking system work.

The only thing which is entirely worthless is Bitcoin. Since Bitcoin is neither legal tender nor backed by any legally enforceable obligation, if a situation occurs where nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for fiat, goods or services, they can neither, be used to pay taxes nor any legal action can be taken by their owners to get some kind of value out of them. That is why Bitcoin is nothing but a modern ponzi scheme, a collection of empty numbers on the internet that will collapse just as all other ponzi schemes have collapsed.

imjustp

full member

Activity: 256

Merit: 102

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

I think you'll find that FIAT currency is exactly what you explain with your post. Since all countries decided to move away from the gold standard pretty much every currency is realistically worthless. As the bank prints more of your currency (dollars) the value of it goes down. In the UK this is a massive problem as, in the past ten or so years, pretty much everything we NEED to LIVE has doubled in price while wages have been kept stagnent leaving people in a position where they earn just enough to keep a roof on their head and feed their fridge.

Yes, bitcoin is just numbers on a screen, but so is FIAT currency. Do you think that there are enough physical dollars in circulation to pay back all the debts which are owed? If you do you really need to do more research. It's the sole reason America is in a terrible state behind the scenes, owing TRILLIONS to China, a bill it cannot pay. If many companies like Apple and Google decided they want all their value to be made into cash there would be a HUGE problem for the US.

Currently there is roughly $3.8 trillion dollars in circulation while the US debt is over $20 trillion. You do the maths.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

BitcoinPC

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 500

What you think all the members that belongs to this community are dump ? People are running their business on bitcoins . So you will say that Paper cash is just a Paper with printed value on it. Its not that simple as it is backup by gold and lot of regulations.

BitcoinPC

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 500

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

Seems you're the laziest guy in the world with lack of knowledge. A guy who can't use their hands to learn about bitcoins and start posting against bitcoins. You even don't know how bitcoins works how you can say its just a number ?

cryptoivan85

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Bitcoins are empty numbers on the internet, like gold is just a metal

Empty numbers, a shiny piece of metal, what's the difference? I have no use for any of them

So what's your point?

Redanim

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Long time ago maybe it was true, but now you cant say that, many countries have started legalizing bitcoins, through some time bitcoin will be on the same level as other popular and demand internet currencies.

Shotz

member

Activity: 105

Merit: 10

Legal power maybe.. but you can't really say that they don't have any value. I just checked coinmarketcap and it seems to me that the value of bitcoin is above $5700. $5700 is a lot of value per one btc.

cyberChevan

member

Activity: 91

Merit: 10

Quote from: Juggy777 on October 07, 2017, 05:36:08 AM

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

How I wish this forum could have a option Bitcoin lover or hater, and hater immediately banned from this forum, this newbie comes here and cribs about Bitcoins, says number dont mean anything, we'll go to preev.com maybe your eyes will poop out and I literally mean poop. As far your banks, they are running scared, and if you can't see it, then you're dumb. I would advise you to grow up, and buy some Bitcoin, maybe you'll improve your knowledge.

That is a good idea! I found myself laughing while reading his post. So much problem that keeps whining in his mind I guess so. Maybe a victim of scam or loser in gambling. A bitcoin hater but still he find hisway posting in bitcoin discussion. I think no one in this forum will be interested in ideology. He should try reading posts about bitcoin here first so that he will be able to learn more about bitcoin.

pikebu

hero member

Activity: 854

Merit: 522

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

On the other hand, since dollars in a bank account are bank's liability, if nobody wants to accept dollars in exchange for goods and services, they will be settled over time through the legal system by transferring real assets from those who have received loans from the bank, since loans are secured by the collateral of specified immovable or movable property and they represent bank's assets. This comes from the fact that obligation to repay the debt would not vanish if nobody wants to accept dollars. Since the borrower received real assets for its dollars, in the absence of dollars the borrower's debt must also be settled by real assets. Alternatively, since dollars that are in circulation were exchanged for goods and services by some borrower and since he is obligated to repay his debt in dollars, if nobody wants to accept dollars the borrower is the one who is forced to accept them in exchange for goods and services otherwise he is unable to settle his obligation to the bank. Besides being backed by borrower's collateral, dollars are also backed by banks' capital and the ability to pay taxes. As we can see, dollars on their own, have real measurable value, just like goods or services.

Bitcoins on the other hand, don't have value on their own, and if nobody wants to accept them in exchange for dollars, goods or services, no legal action can be taken by their 'owners' to get some kind of value out of them. As such, Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet, which means that people are exchanging real values for literally nothing.

I can understand if you are thinking in traditional of investment everything must has rules of the government, everything must has be guaranteed by government, look at this system of centralized of fiat money, what's got from it? We are losing the values of currency in fiat money because of inflation in it, should we are believe in this system? Personal no I didn't believe in it, no government guarantees bitcoins but the community of bitcoins gives it.

Cranidos

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 10:02:59 AM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on October 05, 2017, 10:00:25 AM

Thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and explain to all of us your vast lack of knowledge about how bitcoin works, and why it has value.

Now that you've established your knowledge baseline, perhaps you'll spend some time here learning a bit about it so that you don't make the same mistake in the future.

So, if nobody wants to accept Bitcoins in exchange for dollars, goods or services, what can you do with them?

Maybe you should try to study or research some basic economics for you to learn how currency works and also the law of supply and demand. You shoul be able to learn first how people use their money, and why they want it for their lives. If you have a gold bar in your hand today, how will you use it to buy a thing with a 1 dollar tag price?

omonuyak

sr. member

Activity: 882

Merit: 269

In the natural world, bitcoin is more valuable than any financial instruments and bitcoin without any legal backing has out perform every other forms of money including the most powerful united states of American dollars. Every other forms of money tremble before it and many bank including IFM has acknowledged the potency of bitcoin and blockchain technology. for your information bitcoin did not need governments legalization to remain potency but the computer's power to remain relevant, this system is transparent and banking system is full of manipulation and fraud.

audaciousbeing

hero member

Activity: 1330

Merit: 569

On reading some of the arguments put forward by Op he fail to understand that the fiat that he is supporting is just as a result of force in which bitcoin is against. Today if I want to buy and someone refused my money, it's an offence against the state because that is the legal tender so they are forced to accept even if they dont want and that is the only reason why fiat is ahead of bitcoin if we are all allowed that freedom, I am sure a lot of multinational who are skeptical about bitcoin, would have accepted it even before a lot of us.

andthereyou

full member

Activity: 616

Merit: 102

I am enjoying this thread. Please continue the discussion and so we can learn more.
BUt I have the feeling that the one who make this post has already higher ranked alt account.
And He just made this account to test the understading of the member of this forum. Anyway this is just a feeling.

mevmike

full member

Activity: 294

Merit: 100

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

Unlike numbers on a bank account, which represent legal liability of the bank and are backed by the collateral of specified real estate or other debt instrument that a borrower offers as a way for a bank to secure the loan, the numbers on a bitcoin address are completely void of any legal liability since software that creates them is not a legal entity which can have legal rights and obligations.

first of all i want to thank you for sharing your thoughts.
but please if you could further clarify your points by answering my queries.
let me begin with asking you if you have ever researched with what is really happening with fiat currency right now.
if not then i think you should do it first.
.
next question.
what do you think will happen if all of the fiat holders right now will approach banks and ask for the collateral of the paper cash that they are holding?
do you think the banks will be able to give all of the equivalent collateral to every cash holders?
.
don't you think federal reserve is just simply printing money without gold reserves as back up?
meaning the paper cash you are holding right now is just a paper without any real value.
.
hopefully you can provide answers.
have a nice day...

MMA

legendary

Activity: 1134

Merit: 1000

Quote from: shinkosmos on October 10, 2017, 12:32:28 PM

dude ,if you don't use it , someone will use it ... even me from cameroon Cool

Lol, what are you saying dude? Do you think that you are too smart and all the members or investors in the world are fool that they have invested in bitcoin and bought only digits and not currency? Just keep one thing in mind that bitcoin will the only digital currency of the world in the near future and all other currencies fiat or paper currencies will disappear from the screen. I challenge.

Zenithar

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: djselery on October 10, 2017, 12:36:21 PM

I don't see that your idea makes any sense. Bitcoin isn't just numbers, it is instead a real currency having real and high value, even if you can't see this. Bitcoin is a digital currency, but it is used and available worldwide and accepted in so many marketplaces around the world as a payment method. Also its price actually is above 4800$ which is higher than Gold, for example.

No I do not agree with this statement that bitcoin are just numbers and nothing more. How can you say that? Don’t you see that unlimited number of people around the globe is investing in bitcoin? Are they mad? And the other proof that bitcoin is a real currency and you can use it anywhere in the world is this forum. How many people are making money in this forum? Why should they pay for just numbers?

RodeoX

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1145

The revolution will be monetized!

Something that a lot of people seem to think is that their dollars are "backed" by something. Since leaving the gold standard that is not the case. It's just a belief in the value that supports it. And even when the gold standard actually backed our money it meant little. Gold nuggets are just shinny rock that people think are valuable.

As far as having no legal power. I don't know what that means? When I make purchases online I only use bitcoin. If the counter-party fails to ship or whatever I have the exact same legal recourse as if I had used dollars.

so is bitcoin just numbers? Maybe that is all that money is? But one valueless bitcoin is worth $4800 valueless dollars, that's a fact.

RealityClash

full member

Activity: 322

Merit: 100

Reality Clash- the world's first ETH-backed AR FPS

I hope he learnt something from all of this information Wink

Andre_Goldman

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 253

Property1of1OU

Quote from: HashFace on October 05, 2017, 01:29:24 PM

The value of any investment that is traded on the open market is whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. Period. Same for Stocks. Same for Bonds. Same for Fiat Currency. Same for property. Same for baseball cards. Same for Numismatic Coins. Same for Paintings. Etc. Etc. As long as people are willing to pay for BitCoin, it will have value.

Indeed.
If I buy something from you and you sell it to me, is because something have more value to me than it have to you otherwise no trade would be made.

Regards to bitcoin and blockchain (distributed database) network

It reminds me a book called

Electronic Exchanges: The Global Transformation from Pits to Bits
https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Exchanges-Transformation-Elsevier-Financial/dp/0123742528

rb26

full member

Activity: 247

Merit: 101

OPEN GAMING PLATFORM

Quote from: fxsurfer on October 05, 2017, 09:55:51 AM

So basically, people are paying huge amounts of money to get some empty numbers which are then recorded in a public ledger on the internet. If nobody wants to accept these numbers in exchange for dollars, goods or services, they are as useless as a random number that I write on a piece of paper.

This is also applicable for Fiat. IF no one wants to accept dollar, for instance, then dollar is worthless. Fiat gained value then because it is backed with gold, and now no currency is being backed by a precious stone or whatsoever anymore. Fiat just have a value because the majority agreed that it has a value. This goes for Bitcoin too. Bitcoin has a value because the people agreed it has a value. So if Bitcoin, as you say, is just some empty numbers, then fiat is also a bunch of empty worthless numbers.

Topic: Bitcons are just empty numbers on the internet without any value or legal power (Read 1873 times)