Bitminter bitcoin mining pool - shutdown mining 2020-07-01 website 2021-06-01 - page 77.

strongenough24

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 07:11:53 PM

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:44:34 PM

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 06:33:12 PM

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:08:11 PM

Am I incorrect in assuming that if a short time renter does not find a block, he has not contributed to the BTC the pool earns?

Imagine a group of police officers searching for a missing person. Then one of them finds that person. Would you say that only this one officer was doing his/her job and contributing? Should all the other officers be fired? Is searching without finding not a contribution?

Huh? Actually my question was an honest one, not a commentary. I assume the answer is yes? It does appear that shortening the shifts has increased your income. I wish I could say the same for mine.

I thought the analogy would make it easier to see that your assumption is incorrect. Why do you think searching for something without finding it has no value or is not a valid effort? I think society would collapse if we started to think this way.

Noone can tell the future and know when the pool will be lucky, so that they can mine here when we're lucky, and leave when the bad luck comes. If you saw them strike lucky once or twice, that's all it was. It doesn't mean they can tell the future.

If they could actually predict the future, then yes, they could mine here only when the pool is lucky and your income would be reduced.

It can't be done.

Noone can tell the future.

It's impossible.

Sheesh, talk about putting words in my mouth. Best I shut-up and go away. Thanks for your time Doc.

-ck

legendary

Activity: 4088

Merit: 1631

Ruu \o/

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 07:11:53 PM

If they could actually predict the future, then yes, they could mine here only when the pool is lucky and your income would be reduced.

It can't be done.

Noone can tell the future.

It's impossible.

See Doc, you thought that making a new pool thread moderated would avoid this discussion...

It will NEVER go away, sorry. You get paid as a pool op to explain luck and how PPLNS works over, and over, and over ad nauseam, but they will continue to not believe you. There will always be a fresh round of people that insist.

DrHaribo

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 1034

Needs more jiggawatts

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:44:34 PM

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 06:33:12 PM

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:08:11 PM

Am I incorrect in assuming that if a short time renter does not find a block, he has not contributed to the BTC the pool earns?

Imagine a group of police officers searching for a missing person. Then one of them finds that person. Would you say that only this one officer was doing his/her job and contributing? Should all the other officers be fired? Is searching without finding not a contribution?

Huh? Actually my question was an honest one, not a commentary. I assume the answer is yes? It does appear that shortening the shifts has increased your income. I wish I could say the same for mine.

I thought the analogy would make it easier to see that your assumption is incorrect. Why do you think searching for something without finding it has no value or is not a valid effort? I think society would collapse if we started to think this way.

Noone can tell the future and know when the pool will be lucky, so that they can mine here when we're lucky, and leave when the bad luck comes. If you saw them strike lucky once or twice, that's all it was. It doesn't mean they can tell the future.

If they could actually predict the future, then yes, they could mine here only when the pool is lucky and your income would be reduced.

It can't be done.

Noone can tell the future.

It's impossible.

marklyon

newbie

Activity: 40

Merit: 0

The shorter shifts have made renting more risky. You have less time to get paid out on your shifts, so with long blocks, the chance of an unpaid shift goes up. If that unpaid shift is where you spent your money renting, you get nothing.

The increase in renting has more to do with the drop in prices in the rental market than in gaming a particular pool.

strongenough24

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 06:18:36 PM

PPLNS is not vulnerable to pool hopping.

There won't be a ban on part-time mining. If you mine in the pool your work gets paid the same way as everyone else's.

strongenough24 and theweiss could you edit your last posts to fix the quotes? You make it look like people said things they didn't say.

Sorry. Posting from my phone was a mistake. But I will say I did not ask for a ban on short term mining. I only said it looks like the shorter shifts have encouraged it.

strongenough24

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 23, 2014, 06:33:12 PM

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:08:11 PM

Am I incorrect in assuming that if a short time renter does not find a block, he has not contributed to the BTC the pool earns?

Imagine a group of police officers searching for a missing person. Then one of them finds that person. Would you say that only this one officer was doing his/her job and contributing? Should all the other officers be fired? Is searching without finding not a contribution?

Huh? Actually my question was an honest one, not a commentary. I assume the answer is yes? It does appear that shortening the shifts has increased your income. I wish I could say the same for mine.

DrHaribo

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 1034

Needs more jiggawatts

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 06:08:11 PM

Am I incorrect in assuming that if a short time renter does not find a block, he has not contributed to the BTC the pool earns?

Imagine a group of police officers searching for a missing person. Then one of them finds that person. Would you say that only this one officer was doing his/her job and contributing? Should all the other officers be fired? Is searching without finding not a contribution?

DrHaribo

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 1034

Needs more jiggawatts

PPLNS is not vulnerable to pool hopping.

There won't be a ban on part-time mining. If you mine in the pool your work gets paid the same way as everyone else's.

strongenough24 and theweiss could you edit your last posts to fix the quotes? You make it look like people said things they didn't say.

strongenough24

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: AaronS on October 23, 2014, 06:02:09 PM

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 05:48:31 PM

While your theory is correct the fact is since shift time has changed my earnings have dropped. This appears to be because the shorter shifts have encouraged big time renters to do what must be the equivalent of pool hopping. I would be okay with that if they stayed long enough to find blocks, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Granted my 24/7 408 Ghps is not finding blocks either, but my share is hardly noticeable compared to some of these renters. Is it time for the small miners to give up? Or can someone recommend a different pool?

Big hashers jumping in and out does not affect your pay: it decreases your pay per block but increases the number of blocks found, resulting in the same net pay on average. Since the pool has been lucky as of late your pay should have been better than normal. Ever increasing difficulty definitely decreases your pay if your hash rate remains constant. I think this is where the blame lies for your decreasing pay.

The question about when to "give up" has more to do with your cost per hash than your total hash rate. If you already own the hardware it's simply a matter of comparing the cost of electricity to run it versus the income it produces. If you're really lucky and run you equipment somewhere you don't pay for the electricity then there is no reason to stop no matter how low the hash rate is.

Aaron

Am I incorrect in assuming that if a short time renter does not find a block, he has not contributed to the BTC the pool earns?

AaronS

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: strongenough24 on October 23, 2014, 05:48:31 PM

While your theory is correct the fact is since shift time has changed my earnings have dropped. This appears to be because the shorter shifts have encouraged big time renters to do what must be the equivalent of pool hopping. I would be okay with that if they stayed long enough to find blocks, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Granted my 24/7 408 Ghps is not finding blocks either, but my share is hardly noticeable compared to some of these renters. Is it time for the small miners to give up? Or can someone recommend a different pool?

Big hashers jumping in and out does not affect your pay: it decreases your pay per block but increases the number of blocks found, resulting in the same net pay on average. Since the pool has been lucky as of late your pay should have been better than normal. Ever increasing difficulty definitely decreases your pay if your hash rate remains constant. I think this is where the blame lies for your decreasing pay.

The question about when to "give up" has more to do with your cost per hash than your total hash rate. If you already own the hardware it's simply a matter of comparing the cost of electricity to run it versus the income it produces. If you're really lucky and run you equipment somewhere you don't pay for the electricity then there is no reason to stop no matter how low the hash rate is.

Aaron

strongenough24

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Since shift time has changed my earnings have dropped. This appears to be because the shorter shifts have encouraged big time renters to do what must be the equivalent of pool hopping. I would be okay with that if they stayed long enough to find blocks, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Granted my 24/7 408 Ghps is not finding blocks either, but my share is hardly noticeable compared to some of these renters. Is it time for the small miners to give up? Or can someone recommend a different pool?

nssminer

newbie

Activity: 37

Merit: 0

On the Account Details Page, you could make "Unconfirmed" a link to an "Unconfirmed Stats/Ledger Page" that contained:

[Block Number] [Date & Time] [Your GH/TH/s] [Your Shares] [Your Score] [Your Payout] [Confirmed On] [Next Block Payout]

Have it like the other ledgers so that you can view "BTC", "NMC" and "Both".

The instant payout feature, for this info, no, it is for instant "pay" not instant "knowledge". I can wait for the coin and am glad to. But when calculating future hardware purchases/rentals on a shift/spot basis I need to know what my last drop made me and now. All the above stats are already on the systems, shouldn't be to big a stretch to make a page that displays them.

I'm with Fahlcor on this too, I miss the "expected payout", again this data is on the system, and in real time, or how the heck would the system know what to pay us per block concerning the last 10 shifts.

[Next Block Payout]
{This is what you done the last 10 shifts, so this is what to expect} and it updates every shift.

ichtus27

member

Activity: 72

Merit: 10

http://leaserig.net/index.jsp?rfid=6679

Is that not what the pre pay perk is for, that you can see when the block is found that you get payed instead of waiting till the comformations. Than do that perk what i have on and you have it and know it.

Yes you pay for it, but you see it then instead of that waiting period.

theweiss

member

Activity: 104

Merit: 10

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 22, 2014, 01:55:09 AM

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 11:19:36 PM

When you see it that way, it's not that complicated. Maybe it would help if the website had better info on what CDF is. Or perhaps I should just switch to the "luck" numbers that some pools use. "Luck" isn't exactly defined anywhere, but I guess 110% luck means we found 110% of the blocks we'd be expected to find with the current difficulty and amount of work done.

Quote

I'm scared to use the "L" with a lot of people not really understanding what random really means but I really like the idea. Currently I use the amount of green versus red in the Latest Blocks section of the Live stats page as my happiness indicator.

I too think CDF is an opaque number to new users but, I think most experienced miners can grasp the concept. I do think that Fahlcor's idea of a stat where 100% being the expected work and 200% being twice the expected work, etc... might be a nice newbie-friendly stat. I also really like the idea of an “Expected Block Frequency” stat that is based on the current hash rate.

Ultimately, from reading all of the suggestions that the Doc is getting, I think there are two camps. The experienced folks who want good hard details. e.g. the kind that are difficult for hobbyists to grasp. And then there are hobbyists that can't or don't care to understand the conceptual details that make up a lot of the current and proposed stats. This leads me to believe that an "Advanced View" and a "Basic View" might be the only way to give everyone what they want and to minimize confusion. I think this forum thread could be broken out into two threads (one for each) where people could ask questions relevant to them and get answers delivered in their terms and at their level of comprehension. This is kind of the case now but if the 2 views are implemented I would suggest making the purpose for each a little more defined.

Fahlcor

full member

Activity: 139

Merit: 100

Quote from: AaronS on October 22, 2014, 03:33:28 AM

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 22, 2014, 01:55:09 AM

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 11:19:36 PM

What I really want is to know how much BTC i earn for each block found. This should be a simple accounting type of idea.

That's already in there. Look under "my account" -> "transaction history" in the website menu. All the details are there and you can download it as a .csv file to import into a spreadsheet and play around with if you want.

I could be wrong, but I think Fahlcor wants to see the earnings for a block as soon as it has been found. It doesn't show up on the transaction page until it has be confirmed and irrevocably paid. I understand why it would be useful but I also understand that until a block has its 120 (did that change to 100?) confirmations it really isn't money in the bank (without a perk). Perhaps "Unconfirmed" payments could be broken up to show the amount from each of the blocks awaiting confirmation.

Exactly.

no difference to me if it is a or whatever. Or even in the transaction list pending confirm but listed the second it is found. Looking to see what a block earned 2 days later after it confirms is annoying.

Thx

AaronS

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: DrHaribo on October 22, 2014, 01:55:09 AM

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 11:19:36 PM

What I really want is to know how much BTC i earn for each block found. This should be a simple accounting type of idea.

That's already in there. Look under "my account" -> "transaction history" in the website menu. All the details are there and you can download it as a .csv file to import into a spreadsheet and play around with if you want.

I could be wrong, but I think Fahlcor wants to see the earnings for a block as soon as it has been found. It doesn't show up on the transaction page until it has be confirmed and irrevocably paid. I understand why it would be useful but I also understand that until a block has its 120 (did that change to 100?) confirmations it really isn't money in the bank (without a perk). Perhaps "Unconfirmed" payments could be broken up to show the amount from each of the blocks awaiting confirmation.

DrHaribo

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 1034

Needs more jiggawatts

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 11:19:36 PM

What I really want is to know how much BTC i earn for each block found. This should be a simple accounting type of idea.

That's already in there. Look under "my account" -> "transaction history" in the website menu. All the details are there and you can download it as a .csv file to import into a spreadsheet and play around with if you want.

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 11:19:36 PM

Other things that don't make sense to me. CDF this number to me means nothing especially once it goes red. This number if anything should be the amount of work we have done towards solving a block. So if we hit the current difficulty that would be 100%. If we do double the amount of work it should have been to find a single block that would be 200% etc...etc.... Showing a CDF number that can never hit 100% means nothing to me luck or not.

Yeah, a lot of people have problems understanding what CDF is.

30% CDF means "with the current difficulty and amount of work done we would have found one or more blocks in 30% of cases".

When you see it that way, it's not that complicated. Maybe it would help if the website had better info on what CDF is. Or perhaps I should just switch to the "luck" numbers that some pools use. "Luck" isn't exactly defined anywhere, but I guess 110% luck means we found 110% of the blocks we'd be expected to find with the current difficulty and amount of work done.

Fahlcor

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Activity: 139

Merit: 100

Quote from: bcm2013 on October 21, 2014, 10:24:37 PM

Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 08:08:41 PM

Doc I might be the only one here but can we have FUTURE say TOTAL instead as that is what it is. It is the confirmed and the unconfirmed added together. I just think people would easily look at that and think that is what they are going to be paid in the future when it is a total of what they have mined and will be paid.

If i'm wrong then leave it.

Also if we can still see how much we earn/block somewhere that would be good. Seeings we hit 2 blocks in such a short time I can't see what I earned for each. I also rented a bunch of miners to help me and I use these payouts to justify what I put back in.

again this might be just me...

Fahlcor

I think that is the currently removed "estimated pay per block" that several of us would like to have returned to a stats page may be what you are referring to. This number estimated what your pay would be for the next found block, based on your score across the last 10 shifts, regardless of whether that block was found in 3 minutes or 3 days.

I would be fine with a guestimate to what I might earn IF we found a block based on the past shifts sure, What I really want is to know how much BTC i earn for each block found. This should be a simple accounting type of idea. I'm not sure why this is a difficult one to understand. It could be on the accounts page or blocks page or special Fahlcor page if it is that crazy to think that this info should be available to the users.

Other things that don't make sense to me. CDF this number to me means nothing especially once it goes red. This number if anything should be the amount of work we have done towards solving a block. So if we hit the current difficulty that would be 100%. If we do double the amount of work it should have been to find a single block that would be 200% etc...etc.... Showing a CDF number that can never hit 100% means nothing to me luck or not.

Also another neat number might be to calc how many blocks bitminter should be finding based on our current hashrate. Otherwise I flip over to coinwarz to calc it out for fun. btw at 1.5phash @ current difficulty we should be finding 1 block every 1.16 days. :-)

Fahlcor

bcm2013

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Quote from: Fahlcor on October 21, 2014, 08:08:41 PM

Doc I might be the only one here but can we have FUTURE say TOTAL instead as that is what it is. It is the confirmed and the unconfirmed added together. I just think people would easily look at that and think that is what they are going to be paid in the future when it is a total of what they have mined and will be paid.

If i'm wrong then leave it.

Also if we can still see how much we earn/block somewhere that would be good. Seeings we hit 2 blocks in such a short time I can't see what I earned for each. I also rented a bunch of miners to help me and I use these payouts to justify what I put back in.

again this might be just me...

Fahlcor

I think that is the currently removed "estimated pay per block" that several of us would like to have returned to a stats page may be what you are referring to. This number estimated what your pay would be for the next found block, based on your score across the last 10 shifts, regardless of whether that block was found in 3 minutes or 3 days.

nssminer

newbie

Activity: 37

Merit: 0

Very nice day mining on Bitminter!

Topic: Bitminter bitcoin mining pool - shutdown mining 2020-07-01 website 2021-06-01 - page 77. (Read 324661 times)