Topic: BitPay -- KYC is here! - page 2. (Read 1446 times)

My impression is that the AML/KYC requirements kick in when money -- including bitcoin -- is exchanged for gift cards, not when gift cards are redeemed at the issuer.

Regardless, Amazon has already begun requiring KYC for gift card redemption, although I think it's for fraud and loss prevention more so than money transmission law. You need a linked credit card or bank account (and in the US a verified address), otherwise your account is likely to be locked after gift card redemption. Notice the warnings that Bitrefill now posts on its Amazon gift card pages:

That is a really stupid law if it is true. A gift card is an anonymous payment method. It is more private than using Bitcoin in most circumstances. Does that mean that Amazon is going to start KYCing customers who pay with gift cards?

It seems they have different policies based on the user's location, so they may require KYC verification based on some criteria that determines the location of the user. This could be based on the user's IP address, or it could be something else, such as a representation from the merchant.

phew! i'm in the states. that explains it. thank you for sharing the link.

not that i don't expect similar policies to be rolled out in the USA---i do. i'm just enjoying the non-KYC situation while we still have it.


i don't know the intricacies of AMLD5 but i think it mandated a €50 limit on anonymous payment methods. IIRC even EU-based faucets and tipping services shut down because of it. so i'm not entirely surprised. brutal...

BitPay have always gone far beyond what regulations or laws have required them to do in terms of KYC and privacy invasion. There are a bunch of other gift card providers on the thread I linked above which serve EU customers, and I've not heard anything about new KYC requirements for any of them. Similarly, there are a bunch of alternative payment processors to BitPay, and again, I've not heard anything about new KYC requirements for any of them.

I'm not a European customer so I cannot confirm though. Perhaps someone who is and has made some purchases recently through non-BitPay means could say if there was any difference or any hints of KYC?

At the end of the day, KYC for any and every payment, no matter how small (getting KYCed to buy a pizza!) is utterly ridiculous. We should not be OK with this.

I think they're being overly cautious, though, small transactions up to 150 EUR/month should be excluded, and there are ways of avoiding even that for businesses like Bitpay in some circumstances, unless the Netherlands, where Bitpay's EU HQ are located, has decided to implement the directive more stringently.

That's the price you pay for not living in the US. Don't you know we're the only country that matters!? (/s)

There is a thread of other gift card providers here: Gift cards providers. Perhaps you could find one with better pricing for your region.

I would agree with this. Considering BitPay say they are doing this to comply with various AML laws from various governments, I highly doubt that those governments would say "Yeah, non-perfect and easily fooled blockchain analysis is sufficient" when they can just as easily say "Everyone must upload their passport".

Found a response on Reddit from a BitPay staff member: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/kvujzq/fck_bitpay_use_coingate/gj0w8se/. It seems like they have introduced or are introducing mandatory KYC for all EU customers, regardless of value of transaction.

Given how some services only ask for KYC if there's something they don't like, such as, but not limited to, IP address provenance, or blockchain activity, it wouldn't at all surprise me. Of course I'm still talking about transactions below a certain threshold.

As far as I know when you get to the payment invoice you can just continue as a guest and continue without any verification. A BitPay ID doesn't mean you have to KYC. It is just an email verified account that keeps track of all your purchases and is required for requesting a refund.

This is almost certainly not the case. Either they have KYC information, or they don't. It is possible their software is not properly written to request KYC for customers when their policy says it should.

Some gift cards they are selling have strangely high markup pricing. My guess is they sell those gift cards in a low enough of a volume that costs associated with procuring the gift cards is so high they need to charge more.

I would think Netflix and Amazon would not meet the above criteria though.

Some people report having to undergo KYC, some don't, perhaps what's happening is they demand KYC of people whose activity they deem "suspicious" and leave others alone (below certain transaction thresholds), or vice versa, they treat everyone with suspicion, except those who would have unmasked themselves in some way (again, only for smaller transactions).


Yes, more data points should give a clearer picture.

that seems rather doubtful. i've never used bitpay to pay a service where i've KYC'd, and i really don't think browser/IP/blockchain analysis is a functional replacement for a KYC program that demands official photo ID. i don't think a legal compliance-minded company like bitpay would operate that way, but i could be wrong.

i have a couple theories:

1. they are rolling out region-specific policies based on things like IP address and it's not clear yet which regions are affected
2. they had not/have not fully rolled these policies out, so there are inconsistencies happening right now

we'll probably know a lot more in a couple weeks as more reports come out.

Weird. In my region at least, its pretty darn expensive. For 100 USD of Amazon card, I have pay around 125-133 USD$ worth of btc. Same goes for netflix and other gift cards, I would have to pay 25% more of what the actual value of the gift card is. feelsBadMan.

Either I am incredibly wrong somewhere, or its just my region pricing.

Do you think Bitpay could have found enough information about you through one of the many possible channels such that they decided not to bother to ask you for KYC?

If you are comfortable trusting Bitrefill to hold some funds on your behalf, then you can always top up your account with some bitcoin when transactions fees are low, which will allow you to purchase cards instantly at a future date. They have also introduced a "Bitrefill Balance Card" denominated in USD which you can buy using bitcoin. This effectively allows you to convert bitcoin to a USD balance when the price is favorable (either by transferring bitcoin at that time or by spending bitcoin in your account), which you can then spend on cards later.

it's actually been quite a while since i've used bitrefill. i remembered the markup being ~2% many months ago, but it's ~0.8% now. that's not accounting for the 1% bonus either---not bad at all.

bitpay does 1:1 no markups/no bonuses, but they do charge their annoying network/miner fees, which are sorta highway robbery during high congestion times. the silver lining is they honor payment without confirmation, so delivery is instant.

thanks for pointing that out. bitrefill is better than i thought.

What prices are BitPay charging for their cards? I've never found Bitrefill prices to be that expensive. At the moment, a $500 Amazon card works out to around $503 worth of bitcoin, but with the 1% reward that they offer that comes out at $498. You can even get up to 5-6% back on some other retailers, which makes their cards work out pretty cheap indeed.

Another use from the BCash subreddit seems to be reporting the same thing recently. Using BitPay to try to pay for food delivery and being met with KYC demands - https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/ksjbld/bitpay_now_requiring_full_kyc_info_to_pay_for/

i just bought a $100 amazon gift card through the bitpay wallet a few moments ago. no KYC required. also bought $500 in gift cards ~12 hours ago on egifter through bitpay---same.

i'm not exactly calling bullshit; i'm sure something is happening. but it doesn't appear to be across the board, yet anyway. it's also possible that the OP of that reddit thread is just triggering the known thresholds (like a $3k purchase) and taking a screenshot. you never know. i haven't seen any reports about this surface on coindesk/cointelegraph or other places like that.

i hate bitpay, but i'll be bummed out if there is truth to this and they're in the process of rolling it out. if i can't get amazon gift cards through the bitpay wallet anymore, the only other consistent option will be bitrefill, and they charge a pretty big markup.

I think we will see this more often.

Here in The Netherlands all the crypto companies got way more strict rules last year. Normally I could pay out BTC without any verification. Now everyone have to been verified, otherwise the companies may not pay out. Many companies stopped here due those new regulations.

A quick question for The Pharmacist: Is this the first time you have requested a refund via BitPay? Could it be that this most recent refund would take you over the $1000 limit when combined with previous refunds? I flat out refuse to touch BitPay - as far as I am aware they don't force you to make an account just to pay for things, but we know they perform blockchain analysis and cooperate with companies like Chainalysis to track their users, so perhaps this recent refund was linked to previous refunds and tipped you over the limit?

As ever, this seems like a good idea to post the following link: Why BitPay is anti-bitcoin, why you should avoid them, and a directory of alternate merchants who do not use BitPay - https://debitpay.directory/anti-bitcoin/

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Edit: Just found this on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/kxhxv7/warning_bitpay_is_now_forcing_every_user_to_both/

It appears that KYC is now mandatory for any and every use of BitPay, regardless of value. Man, fuck BitPay.

The community should not roll over and accept this massive invasion of our privacy. The whole point of bitcoin is to not trust third parties in our transactions with each other, not let them stick their noses where they don't belong and charge a fee for the privilege of being spied on. I would suggest everyone email any merchants they know of who use BitPay with something along the lines of the template email given in that Reddit post. And most importantly, stop using merchants who use BitPay.