BitPay -- KYC is here! | Bitcointalksearch.org

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pugman on January 29, 2021, 04:52:22 PM

Yeah but usually when you buy gift cards, you don't give out your address/Identication documents(Passport/drivers license etc), so you aren't fully KYC'd, no?

When I buy gift cards, not only do I not give out any personal details whatsoever, but I use a burner email address and account (if required) which I usually abandon after purchasing 3 or 4 gift cards and move to a new email/account altogether, so as even to avoid letting the the gift card seller build up a profile of what retailers I am shopping with and how much I am spending at each one. Combine that with only spending the gift cards in person, with your face covered (thanks COVID!), and not linking them to an app or other retailer account or loyalty scheme, I would say that's pretty good in terms of privacy and not being tracked.

Quote from: dubst4r on January 29, 2021, 11:49:36 PM

It was bound to happen sooner or later but at the same time there has been a up-rise of other companies providing ways to purchase bitcoins without KYC verification which is nice to see

KYC for buying bitcoins has been around for a while and is getting easier to avoid if you are motivated to do so. More importantly, it is your choice if you use a centralized exchange which asks for KYC or you use a decentralized exchange which does not, such as Bisq or LocalCryptos. But KYC for spending bitcoin is something else, and if the payment provider for a specific merchant starts demanding KYC, you may not have an alternative merchant you can turn to.

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It was bound to happen sooner or later but at the same time there has been a up-rise of other companies providing ways to purchase bitcoins without KYC verification which is nice to see

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 22, 2021, 09:13:15 PM

What a nightmare. Any possibility of buying a pre-paid mastercard or similar with bitcoin and using that instead?

Yeah not possible either. motherfucking cunts.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 23, 2021, 04:34:15 PM

Quote from: DaveF on January 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM

As an interesting point. If you have the BitPay Mastercard you already gave them all the info they need about you.
So, if you have wanted to ability to spend crypto with a card, and get cash back at some places like I discussed in another post about the card, then you have already KYCd yourself to them.

Same with a lot of gift cards, if you use an app to redeem them for anything.

Think about it, I go to Bitrefill to get myself a DunkinDonuts card, if I add it to my app to order my coffee and donut then I have KYCd myself. If the government is looking for me it's just and extra step they have to go though. Same with Chipolte, T-Mobile, or just about any other card you get.

it depends on the app. if you're loading amazon gift cards onto your account, then yes, you've generally already been KYC'd. you're tied to a physical address and likely have registered other payment methods that can identify you.

lots of other retail apps (target, starbucks, chipotle etc)---dare i say, most---collect various PII from your device i'm sure, but they don't require any personal information to load and pay with gift cards. if you use them only in brick-and-mortar stores like cash and do not link your app/account to a physical address or payment methods, i don't think you've KYC'd yourself.

Yeah but usually when you buy gift cards, you don't give out your address/Identication documents(Passport/drivers license etc), so you aren't fully KYC'd, no? Sure, it is possible to find out some information with your name etc, but not everything. It is a gamble at the end of the day.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 20, 2021, 07:26:42 AM

Quote from: shield132 on January 18, 2021, 02:52:21 PM

There is BitPay and there is BTCPay with zero fees. Why would someone use BitPay over BTCPay?

BitPay allows a merchant to accept bitcoin on their website, but receive fiat to their bank account. BTCPay, by virtue of being self hosted and non-custodial, does not. BTCPay users (at the moment) have to manually set up automatic fiat conversion using an exchange or other third party.

Yeah, you are right but I think this is the moment when "Pros" don't outweigh cons. Personally, most of the times I have seen Bitcoin accepted on websites where they sell some for example, sarms, cbd, something that's in the grey area for purchase. So, idk if it's still beneficial for businesses use BitPay as their payment gateway provider, I believe they'll lose high percentage of their users, even BitPay will be left without significant users.

I see that it's becoming a trend for businesses to hold cryptocurrencies, that's why I hope they will move on BTCPay and exchange manually or with the partnership of other crypto service providers.

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Quote from: DaveF on January 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM

As an interesting point. If you have the BitPay Mastercard you already gave them all the info they need about you.
So, if you have wanted to ability to spend crypto with a card, and get cash back at some places like I discussed in another post about the card, then you have already KYCd yourself to them.

Same with a lot of gift cards, if you use an app to redeem them for anything.

Think about it, I go to Bitrefill to get myself a DunkinDonuts card, if I add it to my app to order my coffee and donut then I have KYCd myself. If the government is looking for me it's just and extra step they have to go though. Same with Chipolte, T-Mobile, or just about any other card you get.

it depends on the app. if you're loading amazon gift cards onto your account, then yes, you've generally already been KYC'd. you're tied to a physical address and likely have registered other payment methods that can identify you.

lots of other retail apps (target, starbucks, chipotle etc)---dare i say, most---collect various PII from your device i'm sure, but they don't require any personal information to load and pay with gift cards. if you use them only in brick-and-mortar stores like cash and do not link your app/account to a physical address or payment methods, i don't think you've KYC'd yourself.

Quote from: DaveF on January 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM

It would be nice to think that Bitrefill or any other organization like them is not going to hand over information, to the government, but lets be honest you can't be sure.

what information---the coins you used to pay for your gift card? your browser info?

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Quote from: LoyceV on January 23, 2021, 09:11:02 AM

This is assuming your government is looking for transactions from a specific address, right?

Yeah, I think the distinction here is between passive surveillance and active investigation.

When you complete KYC at BitPay, then they are handing over all that information to the relevant governments and associated agencies, your details are going in a database, and you are being monitored along with millions of other innocent citizens to see if anything suspicious flags up.

When you buy a gift card anonymously and then add it to your Amazon account, for example, then sure there is still a potential pathway there between your real name and the bitcoin transaction you used to buy the gift card, but Bitrefill aren't reporting the serial number of every gift card purchase to the government and the government aren't then taking those numbers to Amazon and demanding that they provide the account details of every redemption. They no doubt could do this if someone was being specifically investigated, but they are not doing it en masse for all gift card purchases.

And if that is a serious concern for you then just don't link the gift cards to accounts or apps which have you details, and instead opt to spend them anonymously in person.

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Quote from: DaveF on January 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM

Think about it, I go to Bitrefill to get myself a DunkinDonuts card, if I add it to my app to order my coffee and donut then I have KYCd myself. If the government is looking for me it's just and extra step they have to go though.

This is assuming your government is looking for transactions from a specific address, right? If you buy the card using a 1000 Bitcoin input that was stolen from an exchange you'll probably get targeted. But if you're not making yourself a target, and especially if your government has no power over Bitrefill, I don't expect them to wait for you at the local donuts store. Besides, you could have received the DunkinDonuts card from someone else as a gift.

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As an interesting point. If you have the BitPay Mastercard you already gave them all the info they need about you.
So, if you have wanted to ability to spend crypto with a card, and get cash back at some places like I discussed in another post about the card, then you have already KYCd yourself to them.

Same with a lot of gift cards, if you use an app to redeem them for anything.

Think about it, I go to Bitrefill to get myself a DunkinDonuts card, if I add it to my app to order my coffee and donut then I have KYCd myself. If the government is looking for me it's just and extra step they have to go though. Same with Chipolte, T-Mobile, or just about any other card you get. It would be nice to think that Bitrefill or any other organization like them is not going to hand over information, to the government, but lets be honest you can't be sure. It just makes it harder to track not impossible.

-Dave

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 23, 2021, 12:42:27 AM

-snip-

Sure. I'm not saying that money laundering from bank accounts, which will presumably be tracked from the "withdrawal" end, doesn't happen. I'm simply saying that money laundering of cash that is not in bank accounts also happens, which would need to be tracked at the "spending" end. The fact is that this tracking at the "spending" end generally doesn't happen, except for some very large purchases. I've personally made purchases of several thousand dollars in cash without even a hint of KYC being required, so you are going to struggle to convince me that KYCing for a $10 pizza bought with bitcoin is to help prevent money laundering, or indeed that any significant amount of money laundering occurs via this route. This is about surveillance and control from governments that are scared of losing their grip and scared of new technology.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 22, 2021, 09:13:15 PM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 21, 2021, 12:05:24 AM

If someone were to take out a lot of cash from the bank, there are reporting requirements the bank has to follow. If someone were to take out smaller amounts of cash in order to avoid the reporting thresholds, there are other reporting requirements.

If someone is laundering dirty cash, from selling drugs for example, then the money is not being withdrawn from a bank, so my point still stands. If this were actually about preventing money laundering, then they would have forced similar regulations (KYC at point of spending) on cash transactions a long time ago, given that cash continues to be the dominant platform for money launderers and has laundered trillions of dollars more than bitcoin. This isn't about money laundering - it's about governments trying to exercise control over what they see as a threat to their easily manipulated fiat monetary system.

Money laundering can happen both with money that is outside of the banking system (cash) and is inside the banking system (in bank accounts). An example of someone laundering money that is in the banking system would be someone committing identity theft to take out fraudulent loans that are deposited into a bank account. Another example might be someone using a fake business to process transactions from stolen credit cards. Both examples would necessitate cash being withdrawn from bank accounts in order to ensure the fraudster can keep the illegitimate proceeds.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 21, 2021, 12:05:24 AM

If someone were to take out a lot of cash from the bank, there are reporting requirements the bank has to follow. If someone were to take out smaller amounts of cash in order to avoid the reporting thresholds, there are other reporting requirements.

If someone is laundering dirty cash, from selling drugs for example, then the money is not being withdrawn from a bank, so my point still stands. If this were actually about preventing money laundering, then they would have forced similar regulations (KYC at point of spending) on cash transactions a long time ago, given that cash continues to be the dominant platform for money launderers and has laundered trillions of dollars more than bitcoin. This isn't about money laundering - it's about governments trying to exercise control over what they see as a threat to their easily manipulated fiat monetary system.

Quote from: pugman on January 22, 2021, 06:28:43 PM

I shit you not, all the gift card providers in my region give such insane markup price, i might as well just use my credit card for it. Hoping for it to change. Cries in pain.

What a nightmare. Any possibility of buying a pre-paid mastercard or similar with bitcoin and using that instead?

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 15, 2021, 11:39:43 PM

Some gift cards they are selling have strangely high markup pricing. My guess is they sell those gift cards in a low enough of a volume that costs associated with procuring the gift cards is so high they need to charge more.

I would think Netflix and Amazon would not meet the above criteria though.

Yeah, ALL of them are like with an insane markup price. So not worth it .

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 16, 2021, 03:37:48 AM

That's the price you pay for not living in the US. Don't you know we're the only country that matters!? (/s)

There is a thread of other gift card providers here: Gift cards providers. Perhaps you could find one with better pricing for your region.

I shit you not, all the gift card providers in my region give such insane markup price, i might as well just use my credit card for it. Hoping for it to change. Cries in pain.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 20, 2021, 07:26:42 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 19, 2021, 10:10:44 PM

Buying a pizza and giving a very large tip via bitcoin might be a way to launder money, which is what KYC is supposed to ~~prevent~~ track.

The same could be said of paying in cash, and even more so by paying in cash in a restaurant or picking up food in person without giving out a name or address as you would with home delivery. And yet, no one trys to make you KYC for this.

If someone were to take out a lot of cash from the bank, there are reporting requirements the bank has to follow. If someone were to take out smaller amounts of cash in order to avoid the reporting thresholds, there are other reporting requirements.

From an AML perspective, when selling gift cards for bitcoin, it is very difficult to tell when someone is buying many lower denominated gift cards in order to avoid KYC thresholds.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 20, 2021, 07:26:42 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 19, 2021, 10:10:44 PM

Buying a pizza and giving a very large tip via bitcoin might be a way to launder money, which is what KYC is supposed to ~~prevent~~ track.

The same could be said of paying in cash, and even more so by paying in cash in a restaurant or picking up food in person without giving out a name or address as you would with home delivery. And yet, no one trys to make you KYC for this.

The same cash is used for much more criminal activities than crypto, but at least those criminal activities support the fiat money system Cheesy

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Quote from: shield132 on January 18, 2021, 02:52:21 PM

There is BitPay and there is BTCPay with zero fees. Why would someone use BitPay over BTCPay?

BitPay allows a merchant to accept bitcoin on their website, but receive fiat to their bank account. BTCPay, by virtue of being self hosted and non-custodial, does not. BTCPay users (at the moment) have to manually set up automatic fiat conversion using an exchange or other third party.

Quote from: squatter on January 19, 2021, 09:42:05 PM

Has anyone come across reports of this happening in the US -- or for that matter, anywhere outside of Europe or European IP ranges?

There is this user - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56133269 - who says he was hit with KYC demands despite being outside the EU, although he does say he uses different IPs so perhaps he used a European VPN server or Tor exit node.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 19, 2021, 10:10:44 PM

Buying a pizza and giving a very large tip via bitcoin might be a way to launder money, which is what KYC is supposed to ~~prevent~~ track.

The same could be said of paying in cash, and even more so by paying in cash in a restaurant or picking up food in person without giving out a name or address as you would with home delivery. And yet, no one trys to make you KYC for this.

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Quote from: LoyceV on January 18, 2021, 11:13:22 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 15, 2021, 11:39:43 PM

My guess is they sell those gift cards in a low enough of a volume that costs associated with procuring the gift cards is so high they need to charge more.

My guess is some merchants give them a better price for the gift card, for instance clothes sellers that have a large profit margin.

THis may be true, but I also think that in general, if a merchant is selling a lot of gift cards to a single customer, they will offer a better deal.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 18, 2021, 11:13:22 AM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 16, 2021, 04:51:13 AM

(getting KYCed to buy a pizza!) is utterly ridiculous.

Isn't it enough the pizza guy knows where to bring it?

I actually somewhat understand this. Buying a pizza and giving a very large tip via bitcoin might be a way to launder money, which is what KYC is supposed to ~~prevent~~ track.

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Has anyone come across reports of this happening in the US -- or for that matter, anywhere outside of Europe or European IP ranges? I've seen a couple more posts like this. All signs that I've seen so far still point to an EU-specific policy.

I would test it myself, except I really don't want to sell any bitcoins right now.

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Quote from: shield132 on January 18, 2021, 02:52:21 PM

Personally, I can't understand the one thing: There is BitPay and there is BTCPay with zero fees. Why would someone use BitPay over BTCPay? I think BitPay also knows that BTCPay exists, so there is higher competition for them but instead of making things easier, they are making everything very hard and crypto unfriendly. Logically, this should destroy their business. Asking KYC for transactions is very unethical and disgusting.

BitPay has first mover's advantage and they make it easier (in theory) to accept fiat. In reality the users transfers the risk of freezing funds from an exchange to BitPay.

Relevant links:
https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcTransmuter
https://medium.com/@prayankgahlot/instant-fiat-conversion-with-btcpay-1d2f3dd57352

Quote from: shield132 on January 18, 2021, 02:52:21 PM

Isn't it my right to protect my privacy?

Statists' aspirations ≫ privacy for the individual

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Quote from: LoyceV on January 18, 2021, 11:13:22 AM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 16, 2021, 03:37:48 AM

Found a response on Reddit from a BitPay staff member: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/kvujzq/fck_bitpay_use_coingate/gj0w8se/. It seems like they have introduced or are introducing mandatory KYC for all EU customers, regardless of value of transaction.

If only more people would care and ignore them. They can probably afford to lose a small percentage of their customers, but if they'd lose 95% of their business, they might change their requirements.
If it's for EU: would a VPN in Mexico work? Cheesy

I think it would be better to choose other countries than Mexico Cheesy

Personally, I can't understand the one thing: There is BitPay and there is BTCPay with zero fees. Why would someone use BitPay over BTCPay? I think BitPay also knows that BTCPay exists, so there is higher competition for them but instead of making things easier, they are making everything very hard and crypto unfriendly. Logically, this should destroy their business. Asking KYC for transactions is very unethical and disgusting. Isn't it my right to protect my privacy? And then governments tell us about how your free will is protected by the law.

Conclusion: This world is shit (most likely we make it shit), full of lies where people are still slaves, where people are just a toy for marketers and data analysts, eh...

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 15, 2021, 06:30:20 AM

it's actually been quite a while since i've used bitrefill. i remembered the markup being ~2% many months ago, but it's ~0.8% now. that's not accounting for the 1% bonus either---not bad at all.

Bitrefill's markup varies per gift card. For small gift cards I don't really care, as long as I don't have to pay a hefty on-chain consolidation fee.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 15, 2021, 08:29:32 AM

If you are comfortable trusting Bitrefill to hold some funds on your behalf, then you can always top up your account with some bitcoin when transactions fees are low, which will allow you to purchase cards instantly at a future date.

My preferred method nowadays is to fund a LN-wallet when on-chain fees are low, and use LN to pay Bitrefill when I need it.

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 15, 2021, 11:39:43 PM

My guess is they sell those gift cards in a low enough of a volume that costs associated with procuring the gift cards is so high they need to charge more.

My guess is some merchants give them a better price for the gift card, for instance clothes sellers that have a large profit margin.

Quote from: malevolent on January 16, 2021, 04:08:07 AM

I think they're being overly cautious, though, small transactions up to 150 EUR/month should be excluded, and there are ways of avoiding even that for businesses like Bitpay in some circumstances, unless the Netherlands, where Bitpay's EU HQ are located, has decided to implement the directive more stringently.

The Dutch National Bank has implemented stricter crypto-regulations than required by EU, see Bitonic.nl.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 16, 2021, 04:51:13 AM

(getting KYCed to buy a pizza!) is utterly ridiculous.

Isn't it enough the pizza guy knows where to bring it?

Quote from: squatter on January 16, 2021, 10:43:16 PM

My impression is that the AML/KYC requirements kick in when money -- including bitcoin -- is exchanged for gift cards, not when gift cards are redeemed at the issuer.

In the Netherlands, the most common gift card (VVV) is treated as an anonymous prepaid creditcard (info in Dutch). That means you can't pay more than €50 at once online.

I use crypto to pay for 3 different webhosts, and ~~one of them has no other option than Bitpay~~. I haven't been hit by KYC on BitPay yet, and I'd hate to lose this host over this. I specifically choose Bitcoin for privacy, otherwise I could just pay by creditcard (which is less intrusive than sending selfies).
Update: I checked, the webhost uses CoinPayments.net, so I'm good (for now).

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 16, 2021, 03:37:48 AM

Found a response on Reddit from a BitPay staff member: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/kvujzq/fck_bitpay_use_coingate/gj0w8se/. It seems like they have introduced or are introducing mandatory KYC for all EU customers, regardless of value of transaction.

If only more people would care and ignore them. They can probably afford to lose a small percentage of their customers, but if they'd lose 95% of their business, they might change their requirements.
If it's for EU: would a VPN in Mexico work? Cheesy

Topic: BitPay -- KYC is here! (Read 1565 times)