Bitstamp TX Fee Exploit - Fee 1.16% instead of 0.2% [Bitstamp Fixes on May 15th] - page 5.

Littleshop

legendary

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1004

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 07:48:20 AM

Oh c'mon guys, this is math 101. This happens with so many transactions on a lot of things on a daily life. It's rounding and normal.

OP did transactions with a BOT lower than $1 as per indicated limitations. He probably was hoping that he would not pay transactions fees.

If you are doing that many transactions, just do larger transactions where rounding is in your favor. Why is he making thousands of really small transactions? He's probably just slowing down their system anyway.

I'm on with Bitstamp on this one.

Here's an example where I paid less than 0.5% because of rounding:
I bought 0.08774 BTC and only paid 0.047%

If you bought a gallon of milk and they split your order up into 64 ounces and rounded the price of the sales tax up each one up you would be pissed too.

Again, it is ok to do this for small single orders. It is not ok to split up a large and immediately executing order into many parts. It is ONE order. If there was not enough liquidity and part went now and part later that is different, but that is not what is happening.

ninjabenja

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: heunland on May 06, 2014, 01:40:50 PM

I would like to report that on Kraken the fees are properly charged without rounding even when an order is filled by splitting it into several trades: Yesterday I had a buy order for 1 BTC on Kraken and this order was split up into 4 different trades: 0.49593 BTC, 0.1 BTC, 0.1 BTC and 0.30406 BTC. For every one of these 4 transactions I was charged a separate 0.2% fee. The total transaction fee I was charged added up to about the same as it would have been if the trade would have been executed in one single transaction, in fact it was a little lower. So when you trade on Kraken, you will not have the inflating fee problem due to rounding reported by the OP for Bitstamp!.

Thanks for that! I've been meaning to look into Kraken but this just takes what had been a, "Yeah, I should look into that"... and turned it into I'm opening a Kraken account this week. Have you traded There for long?

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

Not trolling. I'm just exposing this is how rounding works in many scenarios. Even when you pay taxes at your store.

OP was selling, this small transaction rounding problem doesn't happen if you are buying BTC, only if you are selling in small chunks.
Just try it on the exchange and you will see.

Not true. Say you place an order to sell $500 worth of BTC (or $5,000 or $5,000,000). The fee is rounded on each trade that executes against it. So if 1,000 $0.50 buys are made against it you don't have a single $500 sell you have 1,000 individual sales of $0.50 ea (that are all rounded up). In any exchange you can only control what order YOU place not what orders the counterparty will place. The size of each individual trade is based on the orders on both sides of the book. The fee is based on the size of the trade not the order.

heunland

sr. member

Activity: 373

Merit: 250

I would like to report that on Kraken the fees are properly charged without rounding even when an order is filled by splitting it into several trades: Yesterday I had a buy order for 1 BTC on Kraken and this order was split up into 4 different trades: 0.49593 BTC, 0.1 BTC, 0.1 BTC and 0.30406 BTC. For every one of these 4 transactions I was charged a separate 0.2% fee. The total transaction fee I was charged added up to about the same as it would have been if the trade would have been executed in one single transaction, in fact it was a little lower. So when you trade on Kraken, you will not have the inflating fee problem due to rounding reported by the OP for Bitstamp!.

eleuthria

legendary

Activity: 1750

Merit: 1007

I like how the proposed fixes are all related to minimum order sizes rather than the obvious fix:

STOP ROUNDING TO THE NEAREST CENT! You already support 8 decimals of precision on BTC. Do it for fiat, and simply round down a user's available balance to 2 decimals when they want to pull money out. Professional sites have done similar things for years.

Hell, even inept Karpeles at MtGox knew to do it that way.

ninjabenja

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

I've posted a link to this thread on the Bitsamp Facebook page as well as tweeting to them asking why this shouldn't be fixed... and if they actually care to lose my account. I really want to hear them come back and say this is an error and we can rest assured it will be corrected so that the trading fee you think you're paying - is ACTUALLY what you are paying for the trade. Nothing is more important right now that being able to trust the exchange you use and if I get the slightest whiff that they're going to do this the wrong way- me an my trading volume are going elsewhere.

pickaname

newbie

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Merit: 0

Its the Stamp Misappropriateability!

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

yep, that's ridiculous.

mardaed

full member

Activity: 994

Merit: 105

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

Not trolling. I'm just exposing this is how rounding works in many scenarios. Even when you pay taxes at your store.

OP was selling, this small transaction rounding problem doesn't happen if you are buying BTC, only if you are selling in small chunks.
Just try it on the exchange and you will see.

Yea you're not getting it.

Even with rounding, when you put an ask / bid in you can determine your fee.... and make decisions based on that knowledge. Take the TOTAL amount, multiply by the percentage, then round. The fee should be accurately calculated. This is how it is with other exchanges.

That's not the case in this example. When OP puts a sell order, his fee is at the mercy of buyers... which is inconsistent with how other exchanges behave. This is definitely a flaw.

mmitech

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1001

things you own end up owning you

Quote from: davout on May 06, 2014, 08:59:29 AM

Quote from: mmitech on May 06, 2014, 07:20:15 AM

their engine

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-10-2013&bots=true#338159

cangine ? why ? Cheesy

primer-

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

Nothing wrong with rounding but charging a fee on every chunk is a plain old SCAM. Charge the buyer not the seller! Greedy Slovenian bastards!!
Can someone make a list of exchanges that charge the same way ?

davout

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1008

1davout

Quote from: mmitech on May 06, 2014, 07:20:15 AM

their engine

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-10-2013&bots=true#338159

windpath

legendary

Activity: 1258

Merit: 1027

Quote from: Boxman90 on May 06, 2014, 06:07:34 AM

Proposed fix: Make $5 orders the minimum for both API and Web interface. Then all problems are solved

Great post shedding light on a common problem. We track Bitstamp in our index and I hope to see them implement a $5 minimum trade, there is absolutely no reason not to.

dreamspark

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ?? on ??

Show me the screenshot to that. Because I just made one bigger transaction and it correctly got the fee.
In fact, it made a 0.47% fee, less than 0.5% because it rounded to the cent.

The screenshot is in the OP Roll Eyes

EDIT: You have less than $500 30 day volume, I dont think you trade enough to notice and certainly not enough where you would care about this so your position is not surprising.

dreamspark

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

Not trolling. I'm just exposing this is how rounding works in many scenarios. Even when you pay taxes at your store.

OP was selling, this small transaction rounding problem doesn't happen if you are buying BTC, only if you are selling in small chunks.
Just try it on the exchange and you will see.

You are trolling because you dont seem to grasp how the transaction was carried out. OP had no say in the chunks they were sold in, he didnt add them in chunks of less than a dollar.

Oh right well as long as it doesn't effect you when your buying just taking money off you when your selling.

gizmoh

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1000

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

Not trolling. I'm just exposing this is how rounding works in many scenarios. Even when you pay taxes at your store.

OP was selling, this small transaction rounding problem doesn't happen if you are buying BTC, only if you are selling in small chunks.
Just try it on the exchange and you will see.

It can happen to EVERYONE on any type of order whether Buy/sell - market/ limit , as long as bots are nabbing/putting trades with < $5 trade ( or equivalent in btc)

Boxman90

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 07:48:20 AM

Oh c'mon guys, this is math 101. This happens with so many transactions on a lot of things on a daily life. It's rounding and normal.

OP did transactions with a BOT lower than $1 as per indicated limitations. He probably was hoping that he would not pay transactions fees.

If you are doing that many transactions, just do larger transactions where rounding is in your favor. Why is he making thousands of really small transactions? He's probably just slowing down their system anyway.

I'm on with Bitstamp on this one.

Here's an example where I paid less than 0.5% because of rounding:
I bought 0.08774 BTC and only paid 0.047%

I had a 20 BTC sell order there. Someone (maybe even Bitstamp splitting up orders) bought into that with tiny orders, causing me to pay 6x the fee I am supposed to pay. I had no choice in that matter. When hitting the sell button I agreed to sell at 432.01 at a fee of 0.2% over 20BTC, not 1.16%.

prelsidente

newbie

Activity: 10

Merit: 0

Not trolling. I'm just exposing this is how rounding works in many scenarios. Even when you pay taxes at your store.

OP was selling, this small transaction rounding problem doesn't happen if you are buying BTC, only if you are selling in small chunks.
Just try it on the exchange and you will see.

dreamspark

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: prelsidente on May 06, 2014, 07:48:20 AM

Oh c'mon guys.

OP did transactions with a BOT lower than $1 as per indicated limitations. He probably was hoping that he would not pay transactions fees.

If you are doing that many transactions, just do large transactions. Why is he making thousands of really small transactions? He's probably just slowing down their system anyway.

I'm on with Bitstamp on this one.

OP was the one being bought into by someone making trades lower than $1.

By allowing it Bitstamp are slowing down their own system if you think this sort of activity would slow it down.

Troll fail.

prelsidente

newbie

Activity: 10

Merit: 0

Oh c'mon guys, this is math 101. This happens with so many transactions on a lot of things on a daily life. It's rounding and normal.

OP did transactions with a BOT lower than $1 as per indicated limitations. He probably was hoping that he would not pay transactions fees.

If you are doing that many transactions, just do larger transactions where rounding is in your favor. Why is he making thousands of really small transactions? He's probably just slowing down their system anyway.

I'm on with Bitstamp on this one.

Here's an example where I paid less than 0.5% because of rounding:
I bought 0.08774 BTC and only paid 0.047%

Topic: Bitstamp TX Fee Exploit - Fee 1.16% instead of 0.2% [Bitstamp Fixes on May 15th] - page 5. (Read 21168 times)