While I do not have the 4.5k to risk on anyones 2TH machines, I did order one 100GH. It won't rack in mass coins, but should do ok in terms of price per GH/s.
Topic: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s - page 356. (Read 787066 times)
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.
Good luck with the development.
As good as IPO might look we do not see it as a possibility. Also it is quite costly to list the company and it will require resources which we do not have at our disposal at the moment (time and personnel).
Thank you for the wishes.
I will accept you at your word for the first round, as setting up an IPO has a lot of costs associated with it. But, if you are successful with this round, it might very well be worth looking into for future development.
What I am seeing in the ASIC market in general (not real familiar with your company, so if I totally miss the mark, either ignore me or correct me
) is that they are, do to the novelty and speed of the model, unable to secure outside funding in any great way. Thus, no room for absorbing some loss to get the next more efficient process rolling. So if you could get past that point, an IPO might very well give you the kind of maneuvering room you need to become a big player. Just my 2 cents worth. I'm not pre ordering anything at the moment from anybody. I actually think your pricing model is quite fair. If I had the money to bet, I'd bet on your company and hedge it with KNC, who have largely proven themselves. The community seems to behind you on trust as well. I have heard good things about your FPGA units from a number of people who had no reason to lie to me. Unfortunately, I got into the game just after that was relevant
Best of luck, and if my fortunes change, I might just order a couple units from ya.
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.
Good luck with the development.
As good as IPO might look we do not see it as a possibility. Also it is quite costly to list the company and it will require resources which we do not have at our disposal at the moment (time and personnel).
Thank you for the wishes.
I think BlackArrow has good intentions and bitcoin mining knowledge.
The problem here I think is he needs pre-sales to get the money to do the project.
The pre-sales model is a bit saturated even Cointerra has some boxes on the first batch to be sold and they are selling them to some customers like I for 10.000 US (list price was 14.000) even the Group Buys are not getting investors this days, in short words the pre-sales model is exhausted in my opinion.
I think this may work if BlackArrow do an approach like an IPO where some people invest and risk in their project for a fraction of the company.
Otherwise I feel will never happen.
Regards
TMC
The problem here I think is he needs pre-sales to get the money to do the project.
The pre-sales model is a bit saturated even Cointerra has some boxes on the first batch to be sold and they are selling them to some customers like I for 10.000 US (list price was 14.000) even the Group Buys are not getting investors this days, in short words the pre-sales model is exhausted in my opinion.
I think this may work if BlackArrow do an approach like an IPO where some people invest and risk in their project for a fraction of the company.
Otherwise I feel will never happen.
Regards
TMC
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, the pre-sales model is exhausted, it's also untrusted and hated. No prizes for guessing which companies are responsible for that. An IPO could be interesting if priced correctly and conducted professionally.
Good luck with the development.
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This is a race to the bottom. The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers. If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5% (fiat inflation). Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power? I don't think so. As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.
As long as... but... the chips cannot be cranked out at few cents, the board might be assembled at $15-$20 depending on the complexity of the board and the MOQ but I do not see a BOM taken in consideration (only if you think of how much a heatsink pipe or power supply costs) and I do not see a casing or the software design which comes with the product. Just to name few thinks that simply are obliterated from your statement, not cranked out at few cents.
And it was not an argument, it was merely an opinion.
Look at bitfury board for clues.
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This is a race to the bottom. The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers. If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5% (fiat inflation). Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power? I don't think so. As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.
As long as... but... the chips cannot be cranked out at few cents, the board might be assembled at $15-$20 depending on the complexity of the board and the MOQ but I do not see a BOM taken in consideration (only if you think of how much a heatsink pipe or power supply costs) and I do not see a casing or the software design which comes with the product. Just to name few thinks that simply are obliterated from your statement, not cranked out at few cents.
And it was not an argument, it was merely an opinion.
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It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision. If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.
Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.
Hope this clarify the statement.
I understand. I was just pointing out that, while this table may not be relevant to your pricing decision, it IS very much relevant to your customer's buying decision. Your statement - and I agree that it may just be a language fluency thing - appeared to state that it was just irrelevant in general.
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It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision. If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.
Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.
Hope this clarify the statement.
I understand your position. IMHO, guys like you will be priced out of business because some private pools in Eastern Europe and China are adding hashing power at cost. ~$300/TH+power supplies. You'll never be able to compete with that.
Sorry, but the numbers don't lie. That is the reality.
Don't get me wrong. I respect what you are trying to do, but the reality is that your 2TH product will not be worth $100 in Feb, 2014, if the difficulty progression continues at this rate.
Even KNC & Bitfury will have to slash prices on next batches. Otherwise they will be mining with the hardware themselves and incurring negative ROI like the rest of us.
This is a race to the bottom. The argument that bitcoin price and network hashing rate will adjust does not hold because people buy mining hardware without looking at the numbers. If they did, the network hashing rate increase would be at 3-5%/yr (fiat inflation). Will we see the correction in prices or network hashing power? I don't think so. As long as the chips can be cranked out at few cents and boards assembled at $15-20, the march will continue.
Quote
It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision. If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.
Maybe is my English. The information from the table, difficulty of the network and currency rates have no relevance when a manufacturer is calculating the retail prices. So throwing out those numbers will not trigger the hardware prices to go as low as customers' wishes.
Hope this clarify the statement.
I'm in for one X3 
. Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.
. Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed. Nobody is questioning BA integrity. What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.
$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87
Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut. Every 10-14 days!!!
Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.
But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery. That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.
I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.
This is an endless topic: manufacturers prices vs. customers earnings on hardware. And from our point of view also it is pointless from a point. I have tried to explain in earlier messages. No matter the difficulty of a network or the rate of the currency, a manufacturer has its costs and it can go as low for unit price as it can go. From a threshold it cannot go lower. So the above table from retail price point of view has no relevance.
I am not saying that customers' opinion has no importance, please do not take me wrong. But as we said before, we go as low as we can. As probably everybody else. Some have higher costs than others and these costs reflect on retail price., regardless of network difficulty. I will have to quote another user who in one of his previous messages wrote (I quote from memory so I am sorry if not exact words): somehow Bitcoin currency and network will adapt.
What we try to do here at Black Arrow is to provide a great products at fair prices and the best services we can. We listen to our customers but unfortunately we cannot fulfil their wishes always.
It is relevant information to buyers trying to make a rational purchase decision. If the reality is that you cannot produce your product for a price that is economically viable, that is relevant market information.
I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.
. Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed. Nobody is questioning BA integrity. What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.
$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87
Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut. Every 10-14 days!!!
Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.
But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery. That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.
I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.
This is an endless topic: manufacturers prices vs. customers earnings on hardware. And from our point of view also it is pointless from a point. I have tried to explain in earlier messages. No matter the difficulty of a network or the rate of the currency, a manufacturer has its costs and it can go as low for unit price as it can go. From a threshold it cannot go lower. So the above table from retail price point of view has no relevance.
I am not saying that customers' opinion has no importance, please do not take me wrong. But as we said before, we go as low as we can. As probably everybody else. Some have higher costs than others and these costs reflect on retail price., regardless of network difficulty. I will have to quote another user who in one of his previous messages wrote (I quote from memory so I am sorry if not exact words): somehow Bitcoin currency and network will adapt.
What we try to do here at Black Arrow is to provide a great products at fair prices and the best services we can. We listen to our customers but unfortunately we cannot fulfil their wishes always.
I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.
. Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed. Nobody is questioning BA integrity. What the problem with pre-orders (not just BA) is that the price should be adjusted down every diff increase (10-14 days) by 30%.
$5,000.00
$3,500.00
$2,450.00
$1,715.00
$1,200.50
$840.35
$588.25
$411.77
$288.24
$201.77
$141.24
$98.87
Why? Because every 10-14 days your earnings get a 30% haircut. Every 10-14 days!!!
Even with one month delivery you are losing 50% before you even receive the product.
But ALL manufacturers keep the price flat from the announcement to delivery. That is why selling h/w is the only way to make money in "mining business" because you lock your profits in advance.
I don't see how you can get ROI from any pre-orders...Especially, with private pools that get hardware at cost.
I'm in for one X3 . Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed.
. Blackarrow delivered on the Lancelots, I believe they will deliver on their ASICs. Their timeline seems more realistic than others and KNC has proven that it can be done quickly if the process is well managed. "if the competition drops the price below ours we will drop the prices as well and deliver more hash power."
Dont you think 3$/GH for Jan delivery is already lower than 2.69$/GH for March delivery?
Dont you think 3$/GH for Jan delivery is already lower than 2.69$/GH for March delivery?
$3 > $2.25
Nobody knows what the difficulty will be in Jan or Feb.
Nobody knows what the BTC exchange rate will be in Jan or Feb.
We know our costs and we'll go as low as possible.
Your device (X-1 and X-3) is based on SHA-256 or own script?
Sha256
Current price of CoinTerra
TerraMiner IV - 3$/GH ----- Delivery in "early" Jan (75% of 3$/GH = 2.25$/GH)
Current price of Blackarrow
Prospero X-1: 2.69$/GH ------Delivery in March
Prospero X-3: 2.25$/GH ------Delivery in March
Why do you think that we will fail our delivery date? Any why would any other manufacturer meet their delivery date?
So Blackarrow, what happened to the 25% less than competition price guarantee?
We do not guarantee our prices to be 25% lower than our competition. We are currently offering 35% discount compared to OUR retail prices and, by the time of the shipment, if the competition drops the price below ours we will drop the prices as well and deliver more hash power.
It is impossible to guarantee what you've understood: The competition has the same manufacturing costs as we are. If they were to drop the prices at manufacturing costs not only that we would work for free, we would also need to give our customers 25% of the manufacturing price.
End of Feb 2014 is a long long way with difficulty expected to go up exponentially!
Is your bet that your miner will earn your money back within January? What happens if other manufacturer delivers late?You have said to guarantee your equipment to be 25% lower in price than the competition, at shipping time, for your pre-order customers (I think it's a detail that's missing from your above reply).
For the sake of clarity, can you please explain how you would "refund" that difference? Are you planning to do an actual refund or will you provide more hashing power for the same price (thus lowering the $/GH rate to be 25% cheaper than your competition).
Thank you.
blackarrow
Your device (X-1 and X-3) is based on SHA-256 or own script?
Thx!
Your device (X-1 and X-3) is based on SHA-256 or own script?
Thx!
Maybe you should consider tying your price to difficulty. Or at least to your competitors price/GH/D at the time of shipping.
That will still leave the risk of future D increase with miners, but takes out most of the risk of the D increase during the preorder period.
That will still leave the risk of future D increase with miners, but takes out most of the risk of the D increase during the preorder period.
Current price of CoinTerra
TerraMiner IV - 3$/GH ----- Delivery in "early" Jan (75% of 3$/GH = 2.25$/GH)
Current price of Blackarrow
Prospero X-1: 2.69$/GH ------Delivery in March
Prospero X-3: 2.25$/GH ------Delivery in March
Why do you think that we will fail our delivery date? Any why would any other manufacturer meet their delivery date?
So Blackarrow, what happened to the 25% less than competition price guarantee?
We do not guarantee our prices to be 25% lower than our competition. We are currently offering 35% discount compared to OUR retail prices and, by the time of the shipment, if the competition drops the price below ours we will drop the prices as well and deliver more hash power.
It is impossible to guarantee what you've understood: The competition has the same manufacturing costs as we are. If they were to drop the prices at manufacturing costs not only that we would work for free, we would also need to give our customers 25% of the manufacturing price.
End of Feb 2014 is a long long way with difficulty expected to go up exponentially!
Is your bet that your miner will earn your money back within January? What happens if other manufacturer delivers late?hero member
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I think BlackArrow has good intentions and bitcoin mining knowledge.
The problem here I think is he needs pre-sales to get the money to do the project.
The pre-sales model is a bit saturated even Cointerra has some boxes on the first batch to be sold and they are selling them to some customers like I for 10.000 US (list price was 14.000) even the Group Buys are not getting investors this days, in short words the pre-sales model is exhausted in my opinion.
I think this may work if BlackArrow do an approach like an IPO where some people invest and risk in their project for a fraction of the company.
Otherwise I feel will never happen.
Regards
TMC
The problem here I think is he needs pre-sales to get the money to do the project.
The pre-sales model is a bit saturated even Cointerra has some boxes on the first batch to be sold and they are selling them to some customers like I for 10.000 US (list price was 14.000) even the Group Buys are not getting investors this days, in short words the pre-sales model is exhausted in my opinion.
I think this may work if BlackArrow do an approach like an IPO where some people invest and risk in their project for a fraction of the company.
Otherwise I feel will never happen.
Regards
TMC
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