Topic: Block Erupter USB owners won't make ROI??? - page 4. (Read 10221 times)
Mine PPC with them. Yeah, it could take 3 years for ROI if BTC stays ~100. When blocks go to 12.5, BTC could and should spike, and we'll get our ROI by then I'm sure. ihmo.
Delivering on time is one thing, but overcharging for ASIC products is another. I find that most of AsicMiner's products are overpriced from the initial offering. This is obviously to make money for their shareholders, but I'm not sure how long a business can sustain selling products that are not profitable to the consumer, when the whole purpose of buying an ASIC is to turn a profit at mining.
Are they having trouble selling their products, or are they selling as fast as they can produce them?
If the second, they're not overcharging.
Also, plenty of people buy at current prices assuming the price of bitcoin will go up long term.
If I were a shareholder (I'm not), I'd be pretty pissed if they weren't charging what the market would pay for their products! They're one of very few companies shipping any quantity right now.
I don't get this "The purpose of a business is to be a charity and underprice their products so I can get a better deal" approach to running a business many people here seem to have. It's clearly not people who have run a business or have a tolerable grasp of economics.
Delivering on time is one thing, but overcharging for ASIC products is another. I find that most of AsicMiner's products are overpriced from the initial offering. This is obviously to make money for their shareholders, but I'm not sure how long a business can sustain selling products that are not profitable to the consumer, when the whole purpose of buying an ASIC is to turn a profit at mining.
If the price of bitcoins goes up, there will be a (not in nominal, but in value i.e. in gold) profit.
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
It is true if you mine it yourself. Not if you are part of a pool.
As for the profitability, I suggest that you have a look at this site:
http://www.coinish.com/calc/#
It, finally, takes into account the increase in the difficulty.
Don't be fooled by that calculator. It doesn't really take into consideration the coming increase. You have to enter the appropriate increase value to get the "right"(likely) difficulty increase.
I agree with you that the calculator is quite optimistic, and is based only on past data. But even that data confirms that Block Erupter USB owners will not make ROI.
The reality is worse: they will be losing a lot of money.
Anyone considered the re-sale value?
The only people that are going to make money on Block Erupters are ASICMINER, their shareholders, and the resellers...
Of course people have thought about reselling them... that's the only way to profit from them from the outside looking in.
If the price of bitcoins goes up, there will be a (not in nominal, but in value i.e. in gold) profit.
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
It is true if you mine it yourself. Not if you are part of a pool.
As for the profitability, I suggest that you have a look at this site:
http://www.coinish.com/calc/#
It, finally, takes into account the increase in the difficulty.
Don't be fooled by that calculator. It doesn't really take into consideration the coming increase. You have to enter the appropriate increase value to get the "right"(likely) difficulty increase.
If the price of bitcoins goes up, there will be a (not in nominal, but in value i.e. in gold) profit.
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
It is true if you mine it yourself. Not if you are part of a pool.
As for the profitability, I suggest that you have a look at this site:
http://www.coinish.com/calc/#
It, finally, takes into account the increase in the difficulty.
If the price of bitcoins goes up, there will be a (not in nominal, but in value i.e. in gold) profit.
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
Admittedly it would have been a lot easier to just buy bitcoins to make that bet.
Edit: there is also another upside: mined bitcoins are truly anonymous which can motivate a premium in high-friction transactions..
I'm liking my block erupter that I just got. It's cute, and according to my calculations, it will come close to paying itself off in a year.
The return on investment can be calculated in different ways, not necessarily on just pure BTC generated.
For example, I got mine because I was looking for a way to bump up the hash speed without generating TONS more heat in my office. Compared to adding a graphics card, it does not put out much heat at all, thus saving me money on cooling costs.
Also, I wanted to test the ASIC concept, see how hard it is to get going, learn something in the process, AND bump up my hashrate IMMEDIATELY (added 30%), so that I can generate more bitcoins to buy more ASICS down the road (generating BTC to pay for assembly costs, etc)....
I don't really want to add graphics cards now, with their associated heat, but I did want to bump up the hash rate.
Block Erupter is available NOW, immediately, to help me accomplish the goals that I set out to accomplish.
If you look at it from that point of view, it is well worth the money, right NOW. A month from now, it will not be, according to my calculations.
The return on investment can be calculated in different ways, not necessarily on just pure BTC generated.
For example, I got mine because I was looking for a way to bump up the hash speed without generating TONS more heat in my office. Compared to adding a graphics card, it does not put out much heat at all, thus saving me money on cooling costs.
Also, I wanted to test the ASIC concept, see how hard it is to get going, learn something in the process, AND bump up my hashrate IMMEDIATELY (added 30%), so that I can generate more bitcoins to buy more ASICS down the road (generating BTC to pay for assembly costs, etc)....
I don't really want to add graphics cards now, with their associated heat, but I did want to bump up the hash rate.
Block Erupter is available NOW, immediately, to help me accomplish the goals that I set out to accomplish.
If you look at it from that point of view, it is well worth the money, right NOW. A month from now, it will not be, according to my calculations.
There's also the possibility that people are interested in obtaining hardware and are NOT focused on ROI.
If one wants to obtain bitcoin without playing the "fiat/btc" game, one can buy mining hardware and then play the long game. The ASICs should be profitable for quite a while (as will FPGAs, actually) if one assumes that the initial purchase cost is a sunk cost one will not recover.
But, yes, the real money is made selling mining hardware.
If one wants to obtain bitcoin without playing the "fiat/btc" game, one can buy mining hardware and then play the long game. The ASICs should be profitable for quite a while (as will FPGAs, actually) if one assumes that the initial purchase cost is a sunk cost one will not recover.
But, yes, the real money is made selling mining hardware.
In the long run, when margins get tight, yes. Short term and during a huge step forward in the technology, when a single entity can control a vast % of the network for relatively low cost, no.
if you made back your investment in only a few monoths why would anybody sell it to you
There's also the possibility that people are interested in obtaining hardware and are NOT focused on ROI.
If one wants to obtain bitcoin without playing the "fiat/btc" game, one can buy mining hardware and then play the long game. The ASICs should be profitable for quite a while (as will FPGAs, actually) if one assumes that the initial purchase cost is a sunk cost one will not recover.
But, yes, the real money is made selling mining hardware.
If one wants to obtain bitcoin without playing the "fiat/btc" game, one can buy mining hardware and then play the long game. The ASICs should be profitable for quite a while (as will FPGAs, actually) if one assumes that the initial purchase cost is a sunk cost one will not recover.
But, yes, the real money is made selling mining hardware.
I think there are quite a few of us who warned people. told people, etc. that the math was not on their side, but it didn't seem to matter. As long as people are going to buy hashrate just to increase their virtual p*nises, with no regard for return on investment, companies can charge whatever they want for hardware. I sincerely hope that many prescribed to the, so far, mistaken belief that diff. increases make price go up, so their models were at least flawed. But, I suspect that is only a fraction of those who bought these USB erupters and blades. Although, the blades could still break even, depending on when they were purchased. Most of the equipment bought from ASICMINER, by my math, will not, however.
Just remember, a fool and his money are soon parted.. if you are like me and have itched to make a *wise* investment in mining, and have yet to really find ample opportunity to do so, just sit tight.. opportunities will present themselves *because* of the foolhearty decisions made in the last several months with regard to equipment purchases, not in spite of them.
Just remember, a fool and his money are soon parted.. if you are like me and have itched to make a *wise* investment in mining, and have yet to really find ample opportunity to do so, just sit tight.. opportunities will present themselves *because* of the foolhearty decisions made in the last several months with regard to equipment purchases, not in spite of them.
At least ASICMiner delivered when they said they would, unlike BFL and Avalon!
People been posting from the very start that these items would never make ROI. I've been saying it all along, but no one listened and they bought them anyways.
Eventually I stopped because I own ASICMiner shares and I realized I was shooting myself in the foot, lol.
ASICMiner priced these EXACTLY right. They made a great business decision. If they ever offered an ASIC product that I felt was reasonably priced, I'd buy from them in a second. I can't say the same for BFL and Avalon, both of which have screwed me over at this point. Hopefully my ASICMiner shares will more than make up for all the money I lost due to the other two.
People been posting from the very start that these items would never make ROI. I've been saying it all along, but no one listened and they bought them anyways.
Eventually I stopped because I own ASICMiner shares and I realized I was shooting myself in the foot, lol.
ASICMiner priced these EXACTLY right. They made a great business decision. If they ever offered an ASIC product that I felt was reasonably priced, I'd buy from them in a second. I can't say the same for BFL and Avalon, both of which have screwed me over at this point. Hopefully my ASICMiner shares will more than make up for all the money I lost due to the other two.
+1
At least ASICMiner delivered when they said they would, unlike BFL and Avalon!
People been posting from the very start that these items would never make ROI. I've been saying it all along, but no one listened and they bought them anyways.
Eventually I stopped because I own ASICMiner shares and I realized I was shooting myself in the foot, lol.
ASICMiner priced these EXACTLY right. They made a great business decision. If they ever offered an ASIC product that I felt was reasonably priced, I'd buy from them in a second. I can't say the same for BFL and Avalon, both of which have screwed me over at this point. Hopefully my ASICMiner shares will more than make up for all the money I lost due to the other two.
People been posting from the very start that these items would never make ROI. I've been saying it all along, but no one listened and they bought them anyways.
Eventually I stopped because I own ASICMiner shares and I realized I was shooting myself in the foot, lol.
ASICMiner priced these EXACTLY right. They made a great business decision. If they ever offered an ASIC product that I felt was reasonably priced, I'd buy from them in a second. I can't say the same for BFL and Avalon, both of which have screwed me over at this point. Hopefully my ASICMiner shares will more than make up for all the money I lost due to the other two.
Congrats to friedcat, he did it very well considering he had a limited supply and there was a shortage of supply in the market, but saying that those prices are reasonable (meaning they will allow ROI for customers) is plainly and simply retarded.
Why is it the responsibility of a seller to sell for any less than the market will pay him for his goods?
I would consider a seller who wasn't selling for the maximum they could get for low quantity items to be somewhat mentally defective. There is very strong demand and very limited supply, therefore the prices will be quite high.
Because it's shortsighted. When people realize they get ripped off, they tend not to make the same mistake twice. If this was a fly by night model, it would work. But if they are here for the long term, this is a mistake.
Well, mining is sort of a "complicate" business, so I agree that there are many customers that did not realize that their blade would never ROI because they do not understand the math behind it. But, I'm sorry - it's their fault. At least ASICMiner didn't make misleading statements about dreamlike ROI. They auctioned their first units stating hashrate and power consumption, without promising any kind of return, as many auctioneers do at least in a subtle way. Friedcat set up a fixed price for the following units that was good enough to have them sold out, again without subtle promises. If people is dumb enough to invest without understanding what they are investing in, it's their problem.
For the long term, better hope that open source alternatives spread. Because a private company offering money machines for less money than they will print will never exist, we better get used to that.
If it was an auction, then the consumers can blame themselves but if the base price was set so high as to never return a profit, I'd be pretty pissed at myself for making that mistake and pissed at the company for exploiting it.
Why is it a businesses obligation to ensure you can return a profit on items you purchase from them?
The business is obligated to provide to you what they have advertised, at the agreed on price. No more, no less.
Likewise I disagree with your assessment, if you want to build a long term business model based on repeat customers, you have to make them feel as if they received value for their purchases, nickel and diming them for the sake of profit will yield poor results in the long term. Customers will not return if you give poor value for their money which the USB erupters do.
Have you actually talked to any buyers of the USB erupters who were coerced into paying more than they wanted to for the devices?
Or are you just assuming that since someone paid more than you would pay that they are being "ripped off"?
It's pretty easy to "not pay more than you want to pay" for an item - you don't bid beyond that point, or you simply don't purchase it. An auction is as pure a market transaction as you can create. The supply is specified, the demand is allowed to price it as they wish, and you complete the transaction.
"Nickel and diming" would refer to adding additional fees, extra shipping fees, a handling fee, etc. Selling an item for a negotiated price with no extra fees tacked on doesn't qualify here.
You seem to find that a business selling items for more than you would personally pay to be a dishonest business practice, somehow. If this is the case, then you can clearly fill the gap by selling comparable items for what you feel is a fair price and undercutting them.
To be fair, ASICMiner's prices were set at auction. What reasonable seller would end an auction just because the item became overpriced? I, as a shareholder, would be very upset if they did, and a business's primary responsibility is to its shareholders.
I agree. I would be very upset if a business were selling items for far less than it knew it could get for them. That's a charity, not a business.
Congrats to friedcat, he did it very well considering he had a limited supply and there was a shortage of supply in the market, but saying that those prices are reasonable (meaning they will allow ROI for customers) is plainly and simply retarded.
Why is it the responsibility of a seller to sell for any less than the market will pay him for his goods?
I would consider a seller who wasn't selling for the maximum they could get for low quantity items to be somewhat mentally defective. There is very strong demand and very limited supply, therefore the prices will be quite high.
I think you got me wrong. I did not intend to be ironic. I really congratulate Friedcat, he did an epic job, not only for him but for all ASICMiner shareholders. Kudos for him. In fact, I assume that he hasn't got the capacity to quickly produce and ship thousands of units, he has a limited production capacity, and he squeezed the maximum profit from this limited production capacity.
This is how the market works. If he suddenly sees that he is able to produce thousands of units and sell them with a mark-up than allows him to have a bigger profit than mining himself, he will probably do it because he is acting as a clever manager. I think he achieved an optimum equilibrium, his mining op works wonders and each one of his limited units on sale is being sold at a huge mark-up. The truth is that every businesses priority is to maximize profits. If you have money printing machines, you have to squeeze the maximum you can from them, full stop. I don't see how all this changes the fact that the customers of those units will probably lose money. They are willing to pay for it because of either greed or ignorance, so be it. There's no ethics here, just capitalism at work.
To be fair, ASICMiner's prices were set at auction. What reasonable seller would end an auction just because the item became overpriced? I, as a shareholder, would be very upset if they did, and a business's primary responsibility is to its shareholders.
If it was an auction, then the consumers can blame themselves but if the base price was set so high as to never return a profit, I'd be pretty pissed at myself for making that mistake and pissed at the company for exploiting it.
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