Blowing the lid off the CryptoNote/Bytecoin scam (with the exception of Monero) - page 21.

smooth

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Quote from: CoolGecko on December 02, 2014, 09:47:37 PM

@Smooth:
I don't hold many Quazarcoins or other coins, so that's not an issue for me. But I am working on improving the user interface in my own limited way. For me the learning experience is more important than actually profiting from the coins.

I commend you for working on something as a learning experience, though of course I can't be sure what you say is true (though in reality it doesn't matter).

None of that means the OP of this thread should be "embarrassed" for the huge amount of work he put into uncovering all this stuff and pulling all the details together. I have a particular appreciation for it because I was active on the Bytecoin thread from the beginning and I saw a lot of the lies. I recognized that it was likely a load of crap but I couldn't really prove it. I had no idea about some of the other stuff, like fake whitepapers and shill coins, but it doesn't surprise me at all given what I saw.

smooth

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Quote from: solid12345 on December 02, 2014, 09:23:19 PM

The crypto community has a strange way of viewing what is fair and what is not.

if the Bytecoin devs today sold off all of their premined coins of the technology they invented now for a million dollars, its a scam.

However let's pretend Monero goes to a billion dollar market cap a year from now and the devs own 5% of the supply and they make off with 50 million dollars, well suddenly that is "fair" because they mined it even though they never invented anything really.

Personally I think the word "fair" means little around here. To me for example, Bryce Weiner cloning Neutrinocoin and stamping it with his logo was not in the interest of creating a "fair" neutrinocoin but a weasely way for Bryce and his coinmarket crew to get rich by ripping off neutrino with the cloak of altruism while they super mine it in its opening days. Who is going to stand up and defend those Neutrino crooks after all, there is no honor among thieves.

I operate under the assumption everyone has a selfish agenda.

fyi I don't own any cryptonote coins.

It''s not about selfish and and fair, it is about fraud, deceptive tactics, and lies.

If you find something that the Monero developers have said that isn't true, point it out. If we claimed that Monero was launched in April 18 but actually you find out that it was really launched on October 18 and we premined six months worth of coins in secret, go ahead and call us out for it. If you find that we are operating a half dozen or more other coins under shill identities, call us out for that. If we publish documents that claim to be from 2012 (including alleged digital signatures from 2012) but reference forum posts that didn't exist until 2013, go ahead and prove to everyone what liars and scammers we are.

If you you think that what Bytecoin/Cryptonote did was "fair" or that "fair" doesn't matter, that's your business. I don't even necessarily disagree that "fair" is a largely subjective and often meaningless concept. But if you think Bytecoins/Cryptonote wasn't operating in a fraudulent and deceptive manner (and got caught), then you are simply mistaken.

CoolGecko

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Quote from: solid12345 on December 02, 2014, 09:23:19 PM

I operate under the assumption everyone has a selfish agenda.

fyi I don't own any cryptonote coins.

If you operate under that assumption, you'll USUALLY be right. But people aren't always selfish. I'm sure that there must be cryptocoin developers out there who are in it because they are creative and enjoy creating new things and making their ideas work. And there must be some who believe that cryptocurrencies, not controlled by governments, are a better way forward than government printed money.

CoolGecko

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@Smooth:
I don't hold many Quazarcoins or other coins, so that's not an issue for me. But I am working on improving the user interface in my own limited way. For me the learning experience is more important than actually profiting from the coins.

smooth

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Quote from: CoolGecko on December 02, 2014, 09:25:39 PM

No, you are not morally better. In fact, I'm disgusted by the way some Monero people have been attacking other Cryptonote coins, not just bytecoin but also Quazarcoin. If you are a Monero developer, isn't it more productive to work on improving your own coin than attacking other coins?

Looking at the github history (and everything else) for Monero and Quazarcoin speaks for itself.

Pointing out the truth is not attacking.

Stop trying to obfuscate and promote an obvious scam (or extension of a scam) coin and there won't be it won't be to clarify reality.

I'd have more respect for what you are doing if you simply started a new coin with a clean and transparent history rather than trying to rehabilitate the QCN scam. (Assuming you aren't one of the many alts of the original scammers), how much QCN did you buy at rock bottom prices before trying to pump it?

CoolGecko

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@smooth
No, Monero is not morally better. In fact, I'm disgusted by the way some Monero people have been attacking other Cryptonote coins, not just bytecoin but also Quazarcoin. If you are a Monero developer, isn't it more productive to work on improving your own coin than attacking other coins?

solid12345

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The crypto community has a strange way of viewing what is fair and what is not.

if the Bytecoin devs today sold off all of their premined coins of the technology they invented now for a million dollars, its a scam.

However let's pretend Monero goes to a billion dollar market cap a year from now and the devs own 5% of the supply and they make off with 50 million dollars, well suddenly that is "fair" because they mined it even though they never invented anything really.

Personally I think the word "fair" means little around here. To me for example, Bryce Weiner cloning Neutrinocoin and stamping it with his logo was not in the interest of creating a "fair" neutrinocoin but a weasely way for Bryce and his coinmarket crew to get rich by ripping off neutrino with the cloak of altruism while they super mine it in its opening days. Who is going to stand up and defend those Neutrino crooks after all, there is no honor among thieves.

I operate under the assumption everyone has a selfish agenda.

fyi I don't own any cryptonote coins.

smooth

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Quote from: CoolGecko on December 02, 2014, 08:57:34 PM

rethink-your-strategy should be embarrassed by this thread.

Total bullshit.

There is no reason to be embarrassed about uncovering and calling out fraud, lies, shills (including shlll clone coins), forged documents, hidden premines, and other scam tactics.

Interesting and useful cryptography and some coding does not excuse being a scammer. (Nor does being a scammer invalidate the technical work, and I think the OP pointed out exactly that.)

Quote

Other coins like Monero and Quazarcoin are using the code developed by Bytecoin and that is OK; the license permits that. But don't pretend that the Monero developers are morally better.

They (we) are morally better because we have not engaged in shilling, forgery, lies, and other forms of fraud.

You are apparently so morally blind that you can't see the difference. You should fit right in to the overall altcoin scene I suppose.

BTW, Quazarcoin very likely a shill coin with a developer using a purchased account, as the OP pointed out. I have no idea what is going on with QCN now, but it certainly appears the developer has gone to the usual coin mill scam caretaker tactic (checks in occasionally, says and does approximately nothing, and then disappears for extended periods) that I pointed out earlier in this thread, even before the fact.

CoolGecko

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rethink-your-strategy should be embarrassed by this thread. The Bytecoin developers, no doubt, have put enormous effort into developing Cryptonote. They have in past and continue to be the ones who are doing most of the work. They have made their work open source so that others can build on top of it. And somehow they are trying to cheat people?

Other coins like Monero and Quazarcoin are using the code developed by Bytecoin and that is OK; the license permits that. But don't pretend that the Monero developers are morally better.

Complex code like this takes years to develop and I appreciate the Bytecoin developer's efforts. It's refreshing to be involved in Cryptonote after seeing so many bitcoin clones that have no innovation at all, but are produced only to enrich the developer.

gmaxwell

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Quote from: tacotime on October 11, 2014, 05:27:30 PM

No, it uses EdDSA which are Schnorr signatures (provably secure under the random oracle model, unlike secp256k1)

The wires are a bit crossed there. secp256k1 is just a curve choice, schnorr signatures work fine using the secp256k1. You should have said "unlike ecdsa". Ecdsa is well the well studied enormously widely deployed patent dodge that avoids the schnorr patents (that only expired moderately recently).

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

Quote from: arbitrage001 on August 15, 2014, 03:27:22 AM

We all know all altcoins are pump and dump, this is nothing new.

My question is, how are you benefiting from revealing the "truth"?

nothing compares to NXT in this department.

smooth

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Quote from: jaybny on October 11, 2014, 05:40:38 PM

Quote from: nutildah on October 11, 2014, 05:12:20 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yeah, exactly, btw no backdoors found so far, you can read technical details here: https://lab.monero.cc/

Whats this refering to?

https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2014-09-30/?msg=22605681&page=4

im wondering the same thing. maybe its a backdoor for faster GPU mining?

A snarky FUDish comment as far as I can tell.

The original code could have clearly be considered a back door in that it was deoptimized and obfuscated as discussed in this very thread and dga's blog post here but both were fixed months ago.

There is a valid argument for not making a PoW very complex for fear of backdoors, but aside from the code having originally been obfuscated this one really isn't. It is just: lookup in table, round of AES encryption, write to table, lookup in table, do a multiply-add, write to table, repeat (some XORs omitted for simplicity). Dga has written a few bitcointalk posts on the design of it here and there, but I don't have links to them handy; some might be on this thread.

The trade off here is slow verification in exchange for a low GPU performance ratio and a hypothesized low FPGA/ASIC performance ratio. Whether that is a useful trade off or is even correct for the latter cases remains to be seen. Experiment in progress.

Oscilson

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Maybe the mining for some people is very low.

jaybny

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Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com

Quote from: nutildah on October 11, 2014, 05:12:20 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yeah, exactly, btw no backdoors found so far, you can read technical details here: https://lab.monero.cc/

Whats this refering to?

https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2014-09-30/?msg=22605681&page=4

im wondering the same thing. maybe its a backdoor for faster GPU mining?

tacotime

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Quote from: ?? on ??

sounds safe lol

is there anything wrong with the POW

It's extremely slow. Verifying with only a single CPU core on a modern Intel CPU, it takes almost two hours just to verify the current blockchain. You can verify the Bitcoin blockchain in seconds.

tacotime

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Quote from: jaybny on October 11, 2014, 05:10:25 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jaybny on October 11, 2014, 04:59:10 PM

Im about to start a CryptoNote clone, Breakoutcoin, just for the ring-signature feature. The only thing that concerns me from this thread is the speculation that there may be backdoors in the core code.

Has there been a real code review either by Monero or others?

From when I first discovered CryptoNote, I couldn't figure out why it wasn't taken more seriously? Why the need for darkcoin and all, when CN does it all in the blockchain?

Yeah, exactly, btw no backdoors found so far, you can read technical details here: https://lab.monero.cc/

Thanks. also, do you know if CN uses the same elliptical curves as bitcoin for private/public keys that make up addresses?

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/30911/how-to-convert-from-bitcoin-address-to-cryptonote

No, it uses EdDSA which are Schnorr signatures (provably secure under the random oracle model, unlike secp256k1)

nutildah

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yeah, exactly, btw no backdoors found so far, you can read technical details here: https://lab.monero.cc/

Whats this refering to?

https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2014-09-30/?msg=22605681&page=4

jaybny

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Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jaybny on October 11, 2014, 04:59:10 PM

Im about to start a CryptoNote clone, Breakoutcoin, just for the ring-signature feature. The only thing that concerns me from this thread is the speculation that there may be backdoors in the core code.

Has there been a real code review either by Monero or others?

From when I first discovered CryptoNote, I couldn't figure out why it wasn't taken more seriously? Why the need for darkcoin and all, when CN does it all in the blockchain?

Yeah, exactly, btw no backdoors found so far, you can read technical details here: https://lab.monero.cc/

Thanks. also, do you know if CN uses the same elliptical curves as bitcoin for private/public keys that make up addresses?

edit

jaybny

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Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com

Im about to start a CryptoNote clone, Breakoutcoin, just for the ring-signature feature. The only thing that concerns me from this thread is the speculation that there may be backdoors in the core code.

Has there been a real code review either by Monero or others?

From when I first discovered CryptoNote, I couldn't figure out why it wasn't taken more seriously? Why the need for darkcoin and all, when CN does it all in the blockchain?

beitris.dwlul

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The CryptoNote team has claimed that the name 'CryptoNote' was something they had been using for previous projects.

Topic: Blowing the lid off the CryptoNote/Bytecoin scam (with the exception of Monero) - page 21. (Read 132873 times)