Topic: Both Bitcoin-24 and Mtgox having problems in the EU (Read 14586 times)
Thanks for translating and posting that Ichthyo! Some excellent info in there!
I think the German regulation is quite indicative to the way the legal system treats such matters.
Thus I'll try a bit more free worded, but precise translation:
[this regulation is applicable to....]
value units intended to be used for payments, more specifically such value units, which are drawn in barter clubs, private exchange rings or payment systems in exchange to real economic benefits, goods or services. But also applicable to value units, e.g. Bitcoins, which are created in computer networks without any real economic counter value.
There is allowance for everyone, without prior permit, to create such units of value, and to use them for payments.
But, in case these units of value themselves become the the object of trade, then the business doing those transactions is (based on the circumstances) classified either as banking business, or as financial service. Such business does by principle need a prior official permission. The reason is: such units of value are classifiable as accounting units and as such they are automatically classified as financial instruments.
In practice, given such a regulation, the situation is as follows: As long as you don't to anything large scale, your activities can be overlooked generously. Basically, a small fish is at mercy of the authorities noticing him. But as soon as you start more serious business activities and have not applied for the necessary permit prior to starting any activities, you're automatically suspicious.
And the additional catch is: trying to get the necessary permit requires you to build and present quite some infrastructure, which typically requires you to run a business which can afford to let several employees work solely for creating this infrastructure. At least here in Germany it is definitively this way for any banking business. Financial services have lower requirements, but also more serious limitations.
Thus I'll try a bit more free worded, but precise translation:
Quote
Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden...
[this regulation is applicable to....]
value units intended to be used for payments, more specifically such value units, which are drawn in barter clubs, private exchange rings or payment systems in exchange to real economic benefits, goods or services. But also applicable to value units, e.g. Bitcoins, which are created in computer networks without any real economic counter value.
Quote
Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.
There is allowance for everyone, without prior permit, to create such units of value, and to use them for payments.
But, in case these units of value themselves become the the object of trade, then the business doing those transactions is (based on the circumstances) classified either as banking business, or as financial service. Such business does by principle need a prior official permission. The reason is: such units of value are classifiable as accounting units and as such they are automatically classified as financial instruments.
In practice, given such a regulation, the situation is as follows: As long as you don't to anything large scale, your activities can be overlooked generously. Basically, a small fish is at mercy of the authorities noticing him. But as soon as you start more serious business activities and have not applied for the necessary permit prior to starting any activities, you're automatically suspicious.
And the additional catch is: trying to get the necessary permit requires you to build and present quite some infrastructure, which typically requires you to run a business which can afford to let several employees work solely for creating this infrastructure. At least here in Germany it is definitively this way for any banking business. Financial services have lower requirements, but also more serious limitations.
There are many laws in most european countries regarding financial services, banking, investment advice, anti-money laundering rules, lots of regulations to observe.
There's a reason why so many Forex brokers are located in Cyprus, Malta, Jersey (islands, not USA), lax rules and bribing opportunity.
Just because you're young, run Linux, know php and want to do something means that you can just ignore all regulations. It doesn't impress the authorities if you build things like banks and trading platforms and start taking and paying money from all over the world, they'll be on your ass as soon as they find out about it.
There's a reason why so many Forex brokers are located in Cyprus, Malta, Jersey (islands, not USA), lax rules and bribing opportunity.
Just because you're young, run Linux, know php and want to do something means that you can just ignore all regulations. It doesn't impress the authorities if you build things like banks and trading platforms and start taking and paying money from all over the world, they'll be on your ass as soon as they find out about it.
.
It took ~2 weeks to receive my SEPA withdrawal from Mt.Gox on my bank account. But eventually I did receive it: just got the SMS from my bank few minutes ago. 
I've seen some paranoid customers worrying that Mt.Gox is stealing their money: no, they don't, they're just having massive lags!
I've seen some paranoid customers worrying that Mt.Gox is stealing their money: no, they don't, they're just having massive lags!
The tin foil hats guys were right...we're being screwed behind the scenes. Or maybe it's just here in Europe, the police is trying to be more American than in the U.S.A.
If on 9 th of april their polish account was frozen, then why the hell they let me to make a withdrawal on 11 th of april?!?
that looks really bad:/
that looks really bad:/
It's a joke, central banks are doing money laundering everyday (create money out of nothing is obviously the most illicit way to get money), and they don't allow others to do it ... 
Soo...today i got "noticed" by the bank authorities here in Canada...let me explain..i am a very ..very small trader and i use mainly email interac for receiving funds..well even at this low level of money flowing (few thousands ..) my account is now frozen due to ..you guessed it "fraud suspicion" ..i kept all my trading correspondence and i m meeting the bank ( i wont name the bank yet) manager tomorrow and we will have a chat with the card security department.It looks like things are getting interesting! I will keep you posted on the outcome..I hope is a minor thing but if not...oh well ..i very curious to see their proof
my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.
You deposited or made a withdrawal? I am waiting for withdrawal to my polish bank account since 11th of april.
Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).
There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.
Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.
There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.
Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.
my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.
the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):
simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME! some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €
but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.
i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.
So that's the thing. Money is suddenly pouring out through the bank accounts - sure it's a "fraud". Same with Gox, suddenly tens of thousands users rushing to cash out. Some of them are indeed money lounderers and other shady types. Bitcoin attracts slum too, and authorities are required to step in sometimes. Maybe not in this case, just better earlier and easier, than late and ruthlessly.
Canada ...thinking of taking money from depositors to save banks.
BS.
sure, below is the bafin statement... not sure if you can read German
http://www.bafin.de/SharedDocs/Veroeffentlichungen/DE/Merkblatt/mb_111222_zag.html
here the important parts...
Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden...
and
Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.
http://www.bafin.de/SharedDocs/Veroeffentlichungen/DE/Merkblatt/mb_111222_zag.html
here the important parts...
Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden...
and
Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.
I would like to add my two satoshi´s to this, as I do have a good understanding of the German regulatory environment.
Not sure if everybody knows that Bitcoin has been declared as a financial instrument in Germany by Bafin (German regulator).
This means that everyone who provides a commercial platform to trade bitcoins needs Bafin approval before doing so.
I would be very surprised if he had this license, especially as it seems that he was running the thing by himself.
Not having this license would be a breach against money laundering legislation and would result in a shutdown of the operation. I guess that is what happened....
Not sure if everybody knows that Bitcoin has been declared as a financial instrument in Germany by Bafin (German regulator).
This means that everyone who provides a commercial platform to trade bitcoins needs Bafin approval before doing so.
I would be very surprised if he had this license, especially as it seems that he was running the thing by himself.
Not having this license would be a breach against money laundering legislation and would result in a shutdown of the operation. I guess that is what happened....
Can any one explain me what is prevent Simon to start to refund our BTC balance ?
Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).
There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.
Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.
There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.
Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.
my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.
the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):
simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME! some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €
but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.
i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.
good summary.
From the first document: "fishing attacs" by SH - ridiculous
Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.
Names or it didn't happen.
bitcion central
bitcoin.de
You could add VirWoX to this list. Additionally, they accept credit cards and Paypal. Fees are very high, unfortunately
Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?
Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.
That is Bitcoin, everybody have to care about themself. (wild wild west)
[Edit] no goverment ... nobody will help you.
Now I like to examine a fact from both sides, so let me try to wear the much hated government's hat for a moment.
No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?
Any good business that respects the privacy of its customers qualifies as an open door to "money laundering". The prevention of THEFT requires... Prevention! (Not Catching the thief afterwards by trampling all over everyone else.)No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?
The other "laundering" of money (tax evasion and hiding the profits from businesses that are illegal) are actually very good for economies, and the government stance against them is oppressive and destructive.
So basically he is accused of fraud by taking money in exchange of goods or services - bitcoins - but not providing the good or service.
Gee man people are so paranoid about government wanting to fuck up bitcoins. Not gone happen. Ever! Everyone from journalists to all sorts of think tanks to people who would loose - in combination - 1 billion, to their mother cat and dog etc would cry foul.
So I wish people would stop with the conspiracy theory that the government is out to get bitcoins. Not gone happen.
Gee man people are so paranoid about government wanting to fuck up bitcoins. Not gone happen. Ever! Everyone from journalists to all sorts of think tanks to people who would loose - in combination - 1 billion, to their mother cat and dog etc would cry foul.
So I wish people would stop with the conspiracy theory that the government is out to get bitcoins. Not gone happen.
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