Pretty much all the big players have been in it from the beginning.
That can be an illusion, as it was in the Bernie Madoff case. (Everyone thought they held a much higher percentage of Madoff's deposits than they actually did because Madoff had far more money "on deposit" than he let on.) 
Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending" - page 54. (Read 119665 times)
July 30, 2012, 03:40:05 AM
July 30, 2012, 03:35:18 AM
so the majority, i.e. >50% of the total "investors" in BCST have made money in your opinion?
I don't know for sure just like you don't know it's a ponzi, but I speculate so, yes. Pretty much all the big players have been in it from the beginning. 
July 30, 2012, 03:31:12 AM
"you have no proof Micon! I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"
Thank you for manufacturing my posts.
No one said it was sustainable, in fact, even pirate himself said it isn't, and he will stop when it becomes unprofitable for him.
You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say. This thread is hilarious
You are a prime example of someone I can't do nothin' else for.
here is a direct quote, not an obvious and lulzy satire like last post:
Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.
so the majority, i.e. >50% of the total "investors" in BCST have made money in your opinion?
July 30, 2012, 03:29:54 AM
Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.
It doesn't work that way. If a fraudster gives you another investor's money, you don't get to keep it. Every dollar you withdraw is a liability. False profits can be clawed back to repay current "investors". Fraudulent transfers can be undone.http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/12/18/picower_estate_adds_72b_to_madoff_fund/
http://utahsecuritiesfraud.com/2010/08/02/clawback-lawsuits-how-investing-in-a-ponzi-scheme-can-bite-you-twice/
If you received payments from a Ponzi scheme, your interest payments were not in fact interest payments. They were fraudulent transfers of other people's deposits.
July 30, 2012, 03:26:38 AM
July 30, 2012, 03:24:42 AM
Why didn't all the "anti-pirate" crowd not send even one single representative to Vegas?
They're too busy wallowing in poverty and trying to convince everyone else to join them.
oh?
Thanks for the invite guys, that showed some real top class elitism...
AFAIK, all you had to do was contact Pirate for details on where he'd be when. Did he deny you?
He took my number... said he would call with details..
Its all good I see how this works now, us common folk were not welcome I guess...
looks like some, particularly any who had expressed a whiff of concern, were not welcome.
July 30, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.
Exactly. It takes just under 3 months to double the initial investment. After that, withdrawing the principal means the rest is pure profit.
Micon would've nearly doubled his money by now if he weren't such a maladroit. Some "pro" gambler.
July 30, 2012, 03:11:53 AM
Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ? 
It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.
It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".
whew!
another guy that gets it and has a fundamental understanding of economics.
the ponzi-defending in this thread was getting absurd.
I understand that there is this thread --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79294.260 about +1'ing the fact that BCST is a ponzi, but it says "probably a ponzi" which is weaksauce and does not address the many, many derivatives and other completely separate ponzi's and partial ponzis and funds that are exposed to ponzi. I feel a deep need to expose scams of any sort that I spot.
I am going to ask the users with strong economics backgrounds to please also +1 this thread. Also feel free to assign weight to your thoughts, i.e. for my own perosnal:
"I 100% think that BCST is a classic Ponzi scheme and anyone running a pass-through is helping Pirateat40 steal large amounts of BTC"
I 87% think it's a Ponzi. So what. Let's talk about something else now. This was only fun to talk about the first 11 times around. I enjoyed the drama, but now I've got other dead horses to beat.
Anyone who runs a pass-through doing the community a favor. Whoever wants a slice of that pie should be able to have it.
Now, either I am going to be extremely pissed off that I missed out on the investment of a lifetime, or a lot of people are going to be robbed. Everything has been said that can possibly be said about it, now we just have to ride it out. You came to the party about a month too late. It is good to raise your concerns, they are they same as about 40 other people on this forum, including me. But Every single one of your posts is FUD. Suckers will be suckers no matter how much you scream (that said, you and I may be the suckers here).
Ponzi Bob
July 30, 2012, 03:02:46 AM
Why didn't all the "anti-pirate" crowd not send even one single representative to Vegas?
They're too busy wallowing in poverty and trying to convince everyone else to join them.
July 30, 2012, 02:58:31 AM
"you have no proof Micon! I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"
Thank you for manufacturing my posts.
No one said it was sustainable, in fact, even pirate himself said it isn't, and he will stop when it becomes unprofitable for him.
You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say. This thread is hilarious
July 30, 2012, 02:48:57 AM
Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?
It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.
It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".
whew!
another guy that gets it and has a fundamental understanding of economics.
the ponzi-defending in this thread was getting absurd.
I understand that there is this thread --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79294.260 about +1'ing the fact that BCST is a ponzi, but it says "probably a ponzi" which is weaksauce and does not address the many, many derivatives and other completely separate ponzi's and partial ponzis and funds that are exposed to ponzi. I feel a deep need to expose scams of any sort that I spot.
I am going to ask the users with strong economics backgrounds to please also +1 this thread. Also feel free to assign weight to your thoughts, i.e. for my own perosnal:
"I 100% think that BCST is a classic Ponzi scheme and anyone running a pass-through is helping Pirateat40 steal large amounts of BTC"
July 30, 2012, 02:48:31 AM
wait you think because Pirateat40 has a $1M+ USD ponzi scheme it's not bad for bitcoin because it's only ~ 1% of total BTC? you should say it like this:
"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM! Over $1M USD! HE MUST BE STOPPED"
you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ? this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.
"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM! Over $1M USD! HE MUST BE STOPPED"
you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ? this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.
We have the same opinion. I just have a few minor reservations.
- Bitcoin is in its early stage. It seems that the bitcoin community is bound to repeat all mistakes that happened in the history of all pre-existing financial markets.
- I do care, but I don't see what more we could do. Publishing clear and explicit explanations and warnings apparently has to suffice. But if you have any better idea, let's try it.
What I would like to do is find out who the perpetrator is and who his henchmen are. We know their forum nicknames, but that may not be good enough to bring them behind bars. I particularly dislike that they may get away with the money they stole. I could imagine though that those who lose the most money might track him down.
Eventually everyone running a bitcoin "bank " ,exchange ,investment or wallet service should be mandatory to provide Identification ,authenticated by a local police department ,law firm or notary BEFORE they take in the first deposit ,thats just common sense
Its unfortunate that there will be a few major scams before this happens but its going to have to happen sooner or later
Giving anonymous money **a few million dollars worth** to anonymous guys on the internet to anonymously "invest" has got to be a bad idea
July 30, 2012, 02:43:21 AM
Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid? do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?
They're from the blockchain, yes. It's possible pirate has set up some dummy accounts which he pays interest to each week but which go back into a wallet he controls, but what's the advantage to him of making the scheme look bigger than it actually is?
i really wonder how anyone can know this.
the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.
the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.
I didn't realise that. I thought that withdrawals and interest were separate transactions.
Well dooglus thats the same mistake every other hick tends to make, they "assume" and they "think" and therefore they are all facts to them.
July 30, 2012, 02:19:18 AM
Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid? do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?
They're from the blockchain, yes. It's possible pirate has set up some dummy accounts which he pays interest to each week but which go back into a wallet he controls, but what's the advantage to him of making the scheme look bigger than it actually is?
i really wonder how anyone can know this.
the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.
the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.
I didn't realise that. I thought that withdrawals and interest were separate transactions.
July 30, 2012, 01:44:57 AM
Jon Matonis will write the story with a headline something like this "$1M+ USD bitcoin ponzi scheme collapses"
Last week, BS&T paid out 26,000 BTC in interest.
The top tier interest rate is 7%. Some people get less. If we assume everyone got 7%, then that means there is 371,428 BTC invested, but since not everyone gets 7%, the true figure is higher. Also, this doesn't include the people who automatically reinvest their interest. I've no idea what percentage of the interest is automatically reinvested, but let's assume it's none at all.
Even with these assumptions, the least possible amount invested is 371,428 BTC, or $3,298,280 at the current price of $8.88/BTC.
I assume that some forum users that are +1'ing the "yup Pirate sent me my interest yet again thanks!!!" are shill users in control of the Ponzi owner, which mix extremely well with real users that actually did just get their 7% again this week. Pirate is a good scammer. Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid? do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?
July 30, 2012, 01:42:55 AM
Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?
It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.
It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".
July 30, 2012, 01:38:58 AM
"you have no proof Micon! I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"
I must post this again because some of you missed it the first time. I'm going bold + different color this time for max effect:
This is a statement from the Wikipedia on Ponzi schemes --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
Quote from: wikipedia
Typically extraordinary returns are promised on the investment,[5] and vague verbal constructions such as "hedge futures trading," "high-yield investment programs", "offshore investment" might be used. The promoter sells shares to investors by taking advantage of a lack of investor knowledge or competence, or using claims of a proprietary investment strategy which must be kept secret to ensure a competitive edge.
Here is what Pirateat40 has listed as the reason he makes money and can pay 7% weekly interest --> https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-savings-and-trust-home-closed-50822
Quote from: pirateat40
Q: What are my coins used for?
A: Coins are primarily used for large investment transactions but may also include the following:
Market Arbitrage
Private Loans To Network Members
Never Criminal/Illegal Related
Q: How do you make enough money to pay these rates?
A: If I told you then I couldn't do what I do.
A: Coins are primarily used for large investment transactions but may also include the following:
Market Arbitrage
Private Loans To Network Members
Never Criminal/Illegal Related
Q: How do you make enough money to pay these rates?
A: If I told you then I couldn't do what I do.
Any man of science can see this is a slightly updated BTC-version of a Ponzi scheme.
July 30, 2012, 01:37:15 AM
Jon Matonis will write the story with a headline something like this "$1M+ USD bitcoin ponzi scheme collapses"
Last week, BS&T paid out 26,000 BTC in interest.
The top tier interest rate is 7%. Some people get less. If we assume everyone got 7%, then that means there is 371,428 BTC invested, but since not everyone gets 7%, the true figure is higher. Also, this doesn't include the people who automatically reinvest their interest. I've no idea what percentage of the interest is automatically reinvested, but let's assume it's none at all.
Even with these assumptions, the least possible amount invested is 371,428 BTC, or $3,298,280 at the current price of $8.88/BTC.
July 30, 2012, 01:30:20 AM
wait you think because Pirateat40 has a $1M+ USD ponzi scheme it's not bad for bitcoin because it's only ~ 1% of total BTC? you should say it like this:
"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM! Over $1M USD! HE MUST BE STOPPED"
you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ? this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.
"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM! Over $1M USD! HE MUST BE STOPPED"
you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ? this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.
We have the same opinion. I just have a few minor reservations.
- Bitcoin is in its early stage. It seems that the bitcoin community is bound to repeat all mistakes that happened in the history of all pre-existing financial markets.
- I do care, but I don't see what more we could do. Publishing clear and explicit explanations and warnings apparently has to suffice. But if you have any better idea, let's try it.
What I would like to do is find out who the perpetrator is and who his henchmen are. We know their forum nicknames, but that may not be good enough to bring them behind bars. I particularly dislike that they may get away with the money they stole. I could imagine though that those who lose the most money might track him down.
July 30, 2012, 01:27:23 AM
i read pirate has over 300k btc ,some think he has over 500K of them
If thats correct and he scams ,its going to be a lot bigger than 1 million $
at current prices
If thats correct and he scams ,its going to be a lot bigger than 1 million $
at current prices
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