Author

Topic: btc-arbs.com - Update: dead HYIP, Refund progress: BTC-arbs still doing refunds - page 172. (Read 276958 times)

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250

+ Must admit, this site is certainly older than btc-arbs.com

However,
- investor will only got their principle return only upon maturation, unlike btc-arbs, which is @ anytime
- Although they do offer higher interest rate, but it is not compounded. Return is a fixed amount every period but unlike btc-arbs, slightly lower interest rate but the interest is compounding.

But basic finance principle, investor should divest their investment, DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR EGGS INTO ONE BASkET

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
DMD Diamond Making Money 4+ years! Join us!
Hi all! So I researched these guys a while back and I ended up going with a different but similar service:

https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=lbritish

My reasoning was that there is more information available on Bitcoin Trader and it seemed like it has better odds of being a legitimate company.

Here is the article where I learned about Bitcoin Trader:

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/12/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/

According to the article, Bitcoin Trader started off as invite only and they really don't advertise much at all. Unlike BTC-Arbs, they steer clear of all HYIP forums. They also appear to be "friends" with the Bitcoin Foundation and KNC Miner (not that that means anything).

Here is the Bitcointalk thread on them:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-traderbiz-393570.

Stick to the "trading pool" - there is also a "mining pool" but the rates on that one have continuously been going down so the trading pool is a safer bet. I have both and the mining pool currently pays out 0.7% a day every day while the trading pool pays out a variable return (approx 0.96-1.98% every business day). So far the trading pool has been giving back better returns. Also, the mining contracts are for 1 year and you do NOT get back your principal, while the trading contracts are for 120 days and you do get back your original investment.

If you do decide to sign up, please use my referral link:

https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=lbritish

Note: I am not affiliated with them in any way, but I am a very satisfied client  Grin

Also note that there was a true ponzi/hyip that tried to copy these guys called bitcoin-trade (instead of bitcoin-trader) which has since shut down.

There is one major problem with BTC trader, as soon as you deposit BTC, they immediately transfer it to fiat. This means not only you do not have your principal in BTC but also you are not earning your interest in BTC. BTC is $620 now, what happens if it goes to $1200 a few days/weeks after I deposit my principal?? This is why I ll stick with BTC arbs for now.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1057
bigtimespaghetti.com
Pulled out my tiny principal, but may be interesting to check out this other site.
hero member
Activity: 596
Merit: 500
Hi all! So I researched these guys a while back and I ended up going with a different but similar service:

https://bitcoin-trader.biz/

My reasoning was that there is more information available on Bitcoin Trader and it seemed like it has better odds of being a legitimate company.

Here is the article where I learned about Bitcoin Trader:

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/12/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/

According to the article, Bitcoin Trader started off as invite only and they really don't advertise much at all. Unlike BTC-Arbs, they steer clear of all HYIP forums. They also appear to be "friends" with the Bitcoin Foundation and KNC Miner (not that that means anything).

Here is the Bitcointalk thread on them:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-traderbiz-393570.

Stick to the "trading pool" - there is also a "mining pool" but the rates on that one have continuously been going down so the trading pool is a safer bet. I have both and the mining pool currently pays out 0.7% a day every day while the trading pool pays out a variable return (approx 0.96-1.98% every business day). So far the trading pool has been giving back better returns. Also, the mining contracts are for 1 year and you do NOT get back your principal, while the trading contracts are for 120 days and you do get back your original investment.

If you do decide to sign up, please use my referral link:

https://bitcoin-trader.biz/

Note: I am not affiliated with them in any way, but I am a very satisfied client  Grin

Also note that there was a true ponzi/hyip that tried to copy these guys called bitcoin-trade (instead of bitcoin-trader) which has since shut down.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
DMD Diamond Making Money 4+ years! Join us!
There is another thing that seems fishy to me. Their domain is registered in Panama and they claim their office is in Switzerland.
Every single time I opened a support ticket, I got the response back about 9-10 a.m. Panama time which is already evening in Switzerland.

Has anyone actually got their tickets answered during European working hours?
member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10

BTC-Arbs.com has not shown a single piece of evidence that there's actual trading going on. No contact information (other than email) either.


Hmm.. Do you know their email? Has anyone ever got an email from them? I only communicated with them through the contact form on the site.

Also beware of forgetting your password. If you happen to forget you won't be able to reset it - they(he?) ignored 4 support requests to restore password for my (second) account.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
I know it's possible to work without fiat money, but I take what they say in daily reports,this is an extract of yesterday : "Due to the weekend, our fiat balances in the cheaper exchanges are lower than our fiat balances in the more expensive exchanges, limiting our ability to grab the opportunities as they come about. On Monday, when our wires arrive at BTCe and some of the smaller exchanges, we can expect much higher profits".
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places.

The fee for depositing USD via an international wire transfer to BTC-e is 1%. The trade fee on BTC-e is 0.2%, the trade fee on Bitstamp is 0.2% in the best fee-tier. This adds up to 1.4% already.

Even if for some reason you don't pay to deposit and you have the fiat and coins in the right place. You buy Bitcoin for $1000 on BTC-e and pay a 0.2% fee, so total cost: $1002. Then you sell the same amount of Bitcoin for $1016 at Bitstamp (using the 1.6% price difference you mentioned) and pay a 0.2% fee, so total received: $1013.97.

Now, how much funds were involved in this process? Roughly $2000 worth of USD and Bitcoin. So a profit of $11.97 was made on a sum of $2000, or 0.6%. And this is in the scenario that you don't need to deposit or withdraw fiat (more costs!), have employees or an office to pay for (way more costs!), don't have fiat sitting in wire transfers (lowering the profit-%) and didn't run out of either BTC or fiat (lowering the profit-%).

Even under completely unrealistic assumptions, that 1.6% price-difference translates into a 0.6% profit. In reality, the profit will be much less than that.

You don't have to have fiat in places like BTCe as I've explained many times before. You need to have BTC and some other currency to trade into, ltc for example. Some place it would be good to have fiat trades as well, but that does not have to be BTCe where there are high fees for that particular transaction when using your apparently preferred method of bank wire. Its preferable that they have fiat -somewhere- but where that is none of us know.

You are also using in your 'totally unrealistic scenario' a mixture of 1 high cost exchange for fees and my randomly chosen price difference. You have mysteriously not chosen one of the 3 ways to get Fiat onto BTC-e with no deposit fee.  I chose BTCe as my example because that is the exchange that I use most.  So the fact that it comes out with some profit makes it even more feasible.

Perhaps he has accounts on Huobi? Where there are 0 trading fees. Other sites have graduated fees that reduce with increased usage. We don't know, and guessing is as previously stated, ridiculous.

Its clear you don't know where these trades are happening. If we did, we would be doing it on our own for a greater profit. Its also clear that it is possible as many of us have done it ourselves with far less resources at our disposal.

You have outlined more overhead then I considered in my example. Certainly when you add more overhead you increase the work necessary to overcome that. So perhaps I would have had to wait 5 minutes either way to take care of bottled water, maybe another 15 minutes either way to take care of the hot secretary. Again, its a pointless exercise when the basic premise is feasible. I have worked the numbers and as outlined in previous posts I see it as quite clearly doable. If you want to imagine your paying for his Rolls Royce Phantom, run youre own calculations to satisfy your imagination.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places.

The fee for depositing USD via an international wire transfer to BTC-e is 1%. The trade fee on BTC-e is 0.2%, the trade fee on Bitstamp is 0.2% in the best fee-tier. This adds up to 1.4% already.

Even if for some reason you don't pay to deposit and you have the fiat and coins in the right place. You buy Bitcoin for $1000 on BTC-e and pay a 0.2% fee, so total cost: $1002. Then you sell the same amount of Bitcoin for $1016 at Bitstamp (using the 1.6% price difference you mentioned) and pay a 0.2% fee, so total received: $1013.97.

Now, how much funds were involved in this process? Roughly $2000 worth of USD and Bitcoin. So a profit of $11.97 was made on a sum of $2000, or 0.6%. And this is in the scenario that you don't need to deposit or withdraw fiat (more costs!), have employees or an office to pay for (way more costs!), don't have fiat sitting in wire transfers (lowering the profit-%) and didn't run out of either BTC or fiat (lowering the profit-%).

Even under completely unrealistic assumptions, that 1.6% price-difference translates into a 0.6% profit. In reality, the profit will be much less than that.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
Not to trasfer out BTC,but to trasfer in fiat currency is 1%.Why trasfer BTC in BTCe with a price low?
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
I agree with everything you said Rannasha, but for the management of Fiat Currency, the only way to avoid being short is to use CFD Bitcoin. Ad example Forex-Metal offers CFD with a lever 3 and commissions of 0.5%. I do not know if it might be possible, but it is an idea. it is also true that transfer to btce costs 1%, and in addition there are fees for the purchase and sale, then where is their gain? I remain skeptical or at least surprised by so great profit.

Wrong.
Quoted from their deposit window:
"We do not have fee on BTC deposits."
Quoted from the BTC-e withdrawal window:
"* Fee for withdrawal is 0.001 BTC."

Thats not 1% deposit or withdrawal.

From their trading window:
"At the moment, the fee for transactions is 0.2%."

0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
So lets everyone guess and make up their own strategies, and continue to assume from what the bot we designed would do.

Its already been outlined by me and a few others how fiat and BTC are not the only 2 choices to arbitrage, especially when you're not just talking the main few exchanges. BTC is faster then fiat? Certainly, and LTC is faster still, and Fast is faster yet again. Converting to fiat would be a last resort as its slow to move, and there's always significant fees involved, greater then converting to any of the other coins.

Mods from BTCe have been reported from their own admins in chat to 'dislike arbitrage' and work to minimize that. Cryptsy just 'happens' to slow down during periods of high arbitrage trading opportunities. Its reasonably clear that they do their best to discourage the draining of their own reserves simply because of a price difference.

With that it would be silly if btc-arbs would 'open up his books' and explain to us what he's doing. It doesn't do any of us any good, as we're clearly not doing any better ourselves. At the same time it puts his own operation more at risk, as reps of the exchanges are just as likely to be reading as we are. Not only does it not do any good, it likely wouldn't even make any of the whiners any happier then they are now. So what if he works out a few trades on paper to tell us about, does that make it any more real then it is now? No. Is he likely to outline every trade and every move? As explained, No.

If hes buying bread with the BTC and Fiat, feeding it to hamsters, and using that to power his massive mining operation, it doesn't matter. The only true thing that matters is that we are continuing to get a documented percentage, deposits, and withdrawls are both working and continue to do so reliably. BTC-arbs withdrawls are more reliable lately then a lot exchanges out there in fact.

If someone does manage to go to one of the cocktail parties great. If you see his giant hamster farm power his arduino trading platform, even better drop a report on us. Ideally, include pictures. This constant stream of suppositions and guessing is ridiculous.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
I agree with everything you said Rannasha, but for the management of Fiat Currency, the only way to avoid being short is to use CFD Bitcoin. Ad example Forex-Metal offers CFD with a lever 3 and commissions of 0.5%. I do not know if it might be possible, but it is an idea. it is also true that transfer to btce costs 1%, and in addition there are fees for the purchase and sale, then where is their gain? I remain skeptical or at least surprised by so great profit.
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
I'm also committing a max of .5 btc until I get some more evidence this is an actual company.  If we got more communication and transparency I'd drop at least 5 coins into this investment if its legit. 
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
The results they post are simply too good to be true. They claim to have 10 people working for them out of a Geneva office. Just add up the costs for such an operation, in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Then consider that a 2% difference in exchange rates between different exchanges doesn't mean a 2% profit. Since you need both fiat and BTC to make the arbitrage-trade, your profit is already down to half that of the price-difference. Then you need to keep reserves of both fiat and BTC on all exchanges, while not all reserves are used every day.

The results so far have been consistent with their story and strategy.    So far there few days that they return around 2%.   Typically the yields are around 1% or less.   For example yesterday was a .5% day which I easily beat with my scrypt mining.  

I agree that their story and results match decently with the price development on the exchanges. However, this doesn't really mean much. It takes a few minutes every day to look at price charts and make up a nice story.

And while their claimed results vary in vague proportion with the volatility of the BTC price that day, the absolute value of their results are still far too high, because of several factors I've indicated before.

Often price-differences are predominantly one-way: For example, BTC-e is almost always cheaper than Bitstamp. So it is necessary to wire USD from Bitstamp to your bank account and onward to BTC-e, which can easily take over a week. So a large part of the funds is sitting inactive or is locked up in wire-transfers. The price-difference required to achieve the stated results is several times higher than the actual profit figure. And that's not counting all their operational expenses.

Some visibility into their cash/BTC management would be beneficial to showing if the operation were legit or not.   However your argument too is also largely hand waving probably based on some negative experiences.    While our accounts are divided into BTC/fiat, we don't have any idea how much BTC as been converted into fiat at any given time.    BTC is much faster to transfer than fiat.   They also talk about using minor exchanges too, but it isn't clear what those are.     Too many unknowns to say anything for sure.     Lack of visibility though is a valid concern.  
I have no experiences, negative or positive with BTC-Arbs. My arguments are based on my own experiences with arbitrage-trading, for which I have developed a simple bot that gets me a small amount of money every now and then.

Regarding your comment on BTC conversion to fiat: This assumption is inconsistent with the reported results. As you correctly mention, BTC is much faster to move around than fiat (~1 hr versus several days to >1 week), so for maximum efficiency, an arbitrage operation would need many times the amount of actual fiat than the fiat-value of their BTC stash. Since it is highly probable that BTC-Arbs gets more BTC investments than fiat investments (arguments: 1) BTC is much easier to invest, the threshold is much lower for BTC transfers. 2) Since the site claims to deal in BTC-trading it will appeal to BTC users primarily.), BTC-Arbs should have a large short position in BTC due to BTC investments being converted to fiat to optimize the efficiency of the operation.

A long term short position in BTC is extremely risky, considering the long term price trend of BTC (which is: to the moon!). Additionally, such a short position would be reflected in the daily results, since a large drop in the BTC price should give a large spike in the profit and vice versa. On days where BTC is going up by a few % or more, negative profits are quite probable. Yet we never see a day of negative profit on BTC-Arbs. It also defeats the entire purpose of arbitrage, risk-free profits, to take such a large position with invested money. In theory, the risk can be hedged by buying BTC/USD call options, but the high volatility of BTC/USD means that the price of these options is rather high and the cost of such a hedging strategy would eliminate most if not all of the profits from the actual arbitrage trades. And even with a perfectly delta-zero hedged position, it is very unlikely to never see a day without losses.

So with the information given by the BTC-Arbs website, the conversion of investments from BTC to fiat can be excluded with extremely high levels of certainty. Which brings me back to my original conclusion that most of the invested BTC is just sitting idle, since the operation (if it were legitimate) would be heavily bottlenecked by fiat movements.

If I were to run an arbitrage operation that took investments, I would not offer the same profits for BTC as I would for fiat. Instead, the profit offered would depend on how much the specific currency is bottlenecking the operation. And to protect the interests of previous investors, I would close down investments in one of the currencies (most likely BTC) if the operation becomes severely fiat bottlenecked and additional BTC investments no longer increase profit potential and instead just dilute the profits.

Yesterday morning I created a support request, asking if btc-arbs would be willing to have a limited presence on BitcoinTalk to address some of the concerns outlined here, or if someone affiliated with the organization would be willing to meet with a trusted member of the community to discuss some of their operations. Adam responded that they would "consider" doing so in the future. This was a much less meaningful answer than I'd hoped for, and I don't think I'm willing to make any more deposits there until something gives. Just thought I'd share.
You can tell Adam that since I live very close to their "monthly office cocktail parties in Geneva", I'd be happy to witness their operation ^^

hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Yesterday morning I created a support request, asking if btc-arbs would be willing to have a limited presence on BitcoinTalk to address some of the concerns outlined here, or if someone affiliated with the organization would be willing to meet with a trusted member of the community to discuss some of their operations. Adam responded that they would "consider" doing so in the future. This was a much less meaningful answer than I'd hoped for, and I don't think I'm willing to make any more deposits there until something gives. Just thought I'd share.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 510
BTC-Arbs.com has not shown a single piece of evidence that there's actual trading going on. No contact information (other than email) either.

This point I agree with.   It seems they could post something.

The results they post are simply too good to be true. They claim to have 10 people working for them out of a Geneva office. Just add up the costs for such an operation, in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Then consider that a 2% difference in exchange rates between different exchanges doesn't mean a 2% profit. Since you need both fiat and BTC to make the arbitrage-trade, your profit is already down to half that of the price-difference. Then you need to keep reserves of both fiat and BTC on all exchanges, while not all reserves are used every day.

The results so far have been consistent with their story and strategy.    So far there few days that they return around 2%.   Typically the yields are around 1% or less.   For example yesterday was a .5% day which I easily beat with my scrypt mining.   

Often price-differences are predominantly one-way: For example, BTC-e is almost always cheaper than Bitstamp. So it is necessary to wire USD from Bitstamp to your bank account and onward to BTC-e, which can easily take over a week. So a large part of the funds is sitting inactive or is locked up in wire-transfers. The price-difference required to achieve the stated results is several times higher than the actual profit figure. And that's not counting all their operational expenses.

Some visibility into their cash/BTC management would be beneficial to showing if the operation were legit or not.   However your argument too is also largely hand waving probably based on some negative experiences.    While our accounts are divided into BTC/fiat, we don't have any idea how much BTC as been converted into fiat at any given time.    BTC is much faster to transfer than fiat.   They also talk about using minor exchanges too, but it isn't clear what those are.     Too many unknowns to say anything for sure.     Lack of visibility though is a valid concern.   
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
The results they post are simply too good to be true. They claim to have 10 people working for them out of a Geneva office. Just add up the costs for such an operation, in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Then consider that a 2% difference in exchange rates between different exchanges doesn't mean a 2% profit. Since you need both fiat and BTC to make the arbitrage-trade, your profit is already down to half that of the price-difference. Then you need to keep reserves of both fiat and BTC on all exchanges, while not all reserves are used every day.

Often price-differences are predominantly one-way: For example, BTC-e is almost always cheaper than Bitstamp. So it is necessary to wire USD from Bitstamp to your bank account and onward to BTC-e, which can easily take over a week. So a large part of the funds is sitting inactive or is locked up in wire-transfers. The price-difference required to achieve the stated results is several times higher than the actual profit figure. And that's not counting all their operational expenses.

The price difference yesterday was always at least $15-20 and they posted .5% returns. The reason for this is, they didn't have fiat in BTC-e at the time, to take advantage...presumably because of fully taking advantage of an opportunity on Tuesday. So they had to wait on wire transfer of funds back to BTC-e and missed the chance yesterday. Many days, they report having earned most of their gains from the smaller exchanges, like Kraken and Vault of Satoshi. So far this month, they have only cracked 2% twice. That's not "unbelievable" gains from arbitrage trading. They're great gains in comparison to any savings account you can find, though.

Also, they do take advantage of days where the major exchanges have price parity, to rebalance their accounts by transferring Bitcoin between them and avoid the delays and costs of wire transfers.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
LOL no I can assure you, I'm not Adam...but I can confirm too, that he's the only guy I've ever had an answer from there and from the results page yesterday, he is "Lead Administrator." I am guessing that if he has anyone else working with him, they're other traders...but it wouldn't surprise me if he was doing it solo, either. Saying they have 10 employees is something that nobody could confirm, but makes them look "bigger." He is, after all, trying to get investors to back his arbitrage efforts.

I personally don't doubt that he actually is doing arbitrage, but I think other things are open to speculation. As long as everything appears to be on the up and up with results and payouts, I'm okay. Nobody REALLY knows who runs BTC-e either, just the first names of a couple of Russian guys...but that doesn't stop it from being an extremely popular and trusted exchange.

Also, regarding the Bitcoin deposits - I added some the other day and it took a few hours longer than the last couple of times, but I think it depends on what time you do it...because I suspect that it's credited to you manually, I don't think it's an automated process. Your Bitcoin isn't actually sitting in a wallet somewhere, it's being used in arbitrage trading...so they're just adding numbers to your account balance, but your Bitcoin is out there on exchanges, working.

As for the "office in Geneva" comment someone else made...they said they will invite "VIP Investors" to a monthly cocktail party in Geneva, not that their office is there. They claim the office is in "Switzerland." They could be doing this out of their apartment, all they REALLY need are computers. To be honest, I don't much care if it's in their bedroom or a fancy office, I care about their ability to make these trades work.

And whether they actually do these cocktail parties is irrelevant, because I doubt anyone is investing 200 Bitcoin and if they are, hell...I'd throw a cocktail party in Geneva just for THEM. lol
Jump to: