bter hacked and lost 50m nxt - page 20.

Este Nuno

legendary

Activity: 826

Merit: 1000

amarha

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

This is no different from Bitcoin. If 51% of miners decide to rewrite history, they can secretly mine a longer chain and reverse all txs in the orphaned chain. Bitcoin is taken seriously. Not by all.

And has all the Bitcoin miners gotten together and mined a longer chain? EVER?

Yes. More than once. I posted one upthread.

Seldar

sr. member

Activity: 333

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

THANK YOU. Freezing a single transaction on the blockchain is perfectly reasonable and sane. What are we, hardcore buddhists that practice radical acceptance of some guy just running away with 5% of the world supply of NXT when we could have just launched a new wallet and denied those to him? If somebody has 5% of the world NXT to play around with, NXT is dead. If the NXT community lets this opportunity go because of some dogmatic ideological belief, NXT will look like a joke and will truely die. The fact we can do this is ADDED VALUE to the blockchain. If you want your transactions to be truely irreversible, then move to a crypto where that is the case (none of them) and stop bowing down the entirely fallacious altar of of the free market.

Yes, it will start with a single transaction and after, what will be the next good decision? Ban an account because it's a big one or I don't know what over crap excuse?
Did you see what happened to VRC as soon as the rollback has been done? VRC death.

Bter will disappear? I don't care, that's natural selection.

People lost their money because they left it at Bter? I don't care, that's natural selection.

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: niothor on August 15, 2014, 10:22:19 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

This is no different from Bitcoin. If 51% of miners decide to rewrite history, they can secretly mine a longer chain and reverse all txs in the orphaned chain. Bitcoin is taken seriously. Not by all.

And has all the Bitcoin miners gotten together and mined a longer chain? EVER?

Yes , but it was by mistake and because of the 0.8 client.

Thank you. So this has never happened. I would propose that this is why Bitcoin is still taken seriously. Im sure this prospect has been brought up before when a bunch of BTC was stolen, and no history rewrites happened then. Am I correct?

Spoetnik

legendary

Activity: 1540

Merit: 1011

FUD Philanthropist™

Quote from: Fernandez on August 15, 2014, 05:36:04 AM

This is a huge amount. Bter has been one of the best performing exchanges so I hope this doesn't affect their other operations.
Now prepare for a NXT dump.

uhhhhhhh yeah ok then LOL

i stopped sending coins there because i had 5 failed deposits in a row and gave up hahahha
i was starting to get REALLY sick and fucking tired of having to email them and ask them where the fuck my money went..
i have email titles that say.. "RE: RE: RE: RE RE: RE: About My Missing Deposit" LOL

Viper1

sr. member

Activity: 686

Merit: 320

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:18:04 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 10:14:03 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:41 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 10:04:31 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

You need to stay the hell out of crypto and go back to you bank debit card and paypal, you dont belong here. Roll Eyes

So what you're saying is that crypto currency will never be accepted by big business or the masses. Thought the whole idea was for it to eventually become something that could replace fiat etc? lol

Where did I say that crypto can't be mass adopted? Im waiting

The masses trust their bank cards, paypal etc because there's at least some level of protection from theft etc. Your comment to the other guy says that if one can't accept the anarchy, the "wild west" way of crypto, then they should go back to the relative safety of their bank cards and paypal. In other words, exactly what people want out of their monetary systems, they won't get in crypto. Thus, they'll never accept it as more than a novelty and interesting experiment.

FAIL. Im still waiting

With your well thought out response I can see you're no longer worth responding to. Carry on with your ideological rants based on some alternate reality.

Quantumtangles

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

IF anything is changed it will change Nxt forever. There will be Nxt before this and Nxt after this. Any deliberate change to the history of Nxt transactions will make Nxt going forward Nxt.V2 for all practical purposes.

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon [Napoleon Bonaparte].

I dont know what the answer is. I like the idea of a rollback as it means the hacker derives no benefit. However, I disdain the idea of a rollback because it means the blockchain would be subverted and would set a dangerous precedent. Perhaps a serious mind with no vested interest in the issue (economically) will grace us with an objective analysis.

Nautica

jr. member

Activity: 59

Merit: 10

Quote from: Quantumtangles on August 15, 2014, 10:16:14 AM

The problem with this is that rollbacks would set a worrying precedent. Could any Tom Dick or Harry complain of fraud and demand a rollback? Could a nation State demand a rollback.

Then doing a rollback now will not change anything. The possibility has always been there, and always will.

And let's take a look at your scenario:

If Tom, Dick, Harry, or the Queen of England demand a rollback, then it will simply be up to the NXT community to decide whether they want to jump onto the new blockchain or keep using the old one. Just like today. And today, we can demonstrate initiative and cohesion around the cause of protecting our currency and fraudulent use of NXT, without even touching any other transactions in time.

niothor

hero member

Activity: 826

Merit: 501

in defi we trust

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

This is no different from Bitcoin. If 51% of miners decide to rewrite history, they can secretly mine a longer chain and reverse all txs in the orphaned chain. Bitcoin is taken seriously. Not by all.

And has all the Bitcoin miners gotten together and mined a longer chain? EVER?

Yes , but it was by mistake and because of the 0.8 client.

troleybüs

legendary

Activity: 1424

Merit: 1001

Wow, sucks to be Bter manager. I don't have an account there thank God. I don't think Nxt holders appreciate that news.

Elokane

hero member

Activity: 817

Merit: 1000

Truth is a consensus among neurons www.synereo.com

People democratically electing to right an obvious wrong in a way that only affects the wrong (the theft itself) and nothing else is one of the most beautiful things that can happen in the crypto world.

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 10:14:03 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:41 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 10:04:31 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

You need to stay the hell out of crypto and go back to you bank debit card and paypal, you dont belong here. Roll Eyes

So what you're saying is that crypto currency will never be accepted by big business or the masses. Thought the whole idea was for it to eventually become something that could replace fiat etc? lol

Where did I say that crypto can't be mass adopted? Im waiting

The masses trust their bank cards, paypal etc because there's at least some level of protection from theft etc. Your comment to the other guy says that if one can't accept the anarchy, the "wild west" way of crypto, then they should go back to the relative safety of their bank cards and paypal. In other words, exactly what people want out of their monetary systems, they won't get in crypto. Thus, they'll never accept it as more than a novelty and interesting experiment.

FAIL. Im still waiting

Quantumtangles

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 15, 2014, 10:06:34 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 09:37:30 AM

Quote from: maok on August 15, 2014, 09:30:20 AM

you are creating a precedent here. It is totally a centralized decision which will set a precedent in the future when and if crypto will be accepted as global currency. It will create the option for big entity to bring his mining power in action whenever a rolling back will be in his favour. This is an unwritten rule. Crypto stands for irreversibility not for lets take another look and if it doesn't suits us lets rewrite history by using latent forces of mining whenever a rolling back suits us.

crypto will never be accepted as a global currency with these types of things happening on a regular basis. I can understand not wanting to roll back the entire blockchain, but the patch that just rolls back the hackers transactions is a very reasonable solution. There has to be some form of "justice" or anarchy will reign and no one outside the crypto community will take any of this as a serious option.

THANK YOU. Freezing a single transaction on the blockchain is perfectly reasonable and sane. What are we, hardcore buddhists that practice radical acceptance of some guy just running away with 5% of the world supply of NXT when we could have just launched a new wallet and denied those to him? If somebody has 5% of the world NXT to play around with, NXT is dead. If the NXT community lets this opportunity go because of some dogmatic ideological belief, NXT will look like a joke and will truely die. The fact we can do this is ADDED VALUE to the blockchain. If you want your transactions to be truely irreversible, then move to a crypto where that is the case (none of them) and stop bowing down the entirely fallacious altar of of the free market.

You need to stay the hell out of crypto and go back to you bank debit card and paypal, you dont belong here. Roll Eyes

Don't you see the difference between a centralised single entity(PayPal) and a decentralised group voting on a chain?

For the record I'm not for or against rollbacks.

But the amount of ignorance as to what decentralisation is somewhat amazing.

I can see the force of the rollback argument. Prevent the thief from receiving any benefit before keeping calm and carrying on as though nothing had happened.

The problem with this is that rollbacks would set a worrying precedent. Could any Tom Dick or Harry complain of fraud and demand a rollback? Could a nation State demand a rollback.

Then again, the counterargument is that refusing a rollback might result in NXT suffering irreparable damage. I do not know what the answer is. Could one of the serious minds let us have their considered opinion on the subject (preferably someone who has no vested or economic interest in the outcome). Comments from people like me with vested interests are scarcely objective. Some objective intelligent analysis would be most welcome. Nemo iudex in sua causa.

solid12345

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1000

A simple google search of the devs email reveals alot of entries

[email protected]

He even published some kind of university paper

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=6269914

Why can't anyone just find this guy?

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: battbot on August 15, 2014, 10:14:47 AM

If NXT does a rollback on the blockchain, they are essentially killing their own coin. They will do themselves more harm than the thief who stole 50m.

+ 100000000000000000000000000

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:02:24 AM

Hello, dumbass, are you hearing what you are saying?

"lets get together and not count a REAL transaction". GREAT IDEA? Roll Eyes

IT IS
SUICIDE!!

The community fighting with each other and circle jerking about the dogma of irreversibility while some guy gets away with 5% of the world reserve of NXT running around is CERTAIN suicide,

while the community demonstrating initiative and cohesion in fighting theft by showcasing decentralised majoritarian voting on excluding a single transaction is ADDED VALUE AND REPUTATION to the NXT blockchain.

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

You need to stay the hell out of crypto and go back to you bank debit card and paypal, you dont belong here. Roll Eyes

Oh, like you are the moral authority that decides who gets to use crypto and who doesn't. If that's so important to you, why don't you go create your own alt coin that inherently prevents rollbacks? And invite all your ideologue friends on your little island? You are literally getting confused between your wishes and reality. Nobody gives a shit who you think should be using crypto. In fact, not even crypto gives a shit. It's a technology that people use. It does not have a built-in morality. You don't want to rollback based on your dogmatic, useless beliefs? Fine. The network will go ahead without you or your concept of how it's "supposed to work".

You could not be more wrong. Hopefully this just doesn't happen so Nxt survives as a serious currency is all I can say.

battbot

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

If NXT does a rollback on the blockchain, they are essentially killing their own coin. They will do themselves more harm than the thief who stole 50m.

devphp

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

This is no different from Bitcoin. If 51% of miners decide to rewrite history, they can secretly mine a longer chain and reverse all txs in the orphaned chain. Bitcoin is taken seriously. Not by all.

And has all the Bitcoin miners gotten together and mined a longer chain? EVER?

Well, we don't know for sure, there were orphaned blocks, I've seen myself, and you don't know for sure how much of that happens, because it's a secret chain, it's called selfish mining

Well, that hasn't happened in NXT yet, so why all this agitation

Forgers have a choice, that's true, which choice will they take - that is for all to see in a few hours. This is how crypto currencies operate

Viper1

sr. member

Activity: 686

Merit: 320

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:05:41 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on August 15, 2014, 10:04:31 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

You need to stay the hell out of crypto and go back to you bank debit card and paypal, you dont belong here. Roll Eyes

So what you're saying is that crypto currency will never be accepted by big business or the masses. Thought the whole idea was for it to eventually become something that could replace fiat etc? lol

Where did I say that crypto can't be mass adopted? Im waiting

The masses trust their bank cards, paypal etc because there's at least some level of protection from theft etc. Your comment to the other guy says that if one can't accept the anarchy, the "wild west" way of crypto, then they should go back to the relative safety of their bank cards and paypal. In other words, exactly what people want out of their monetary systems, they won't get in crypto. Thus, they'll never accept it as more than a novelty and interesting experiment.

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chris001 on August 15, 2014, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: devphp on August 15, 2014, 10:05:12 AM

The NXT protocol allows to rewrite the last 720 blocks with transactions in them if 51% of forgers decide to do it. This is by design until TF is implemented. We're now going to find out if 51% of forgers are for or against rewriting history, in about 15-16 hours. So basically, it's all standard operation, maybe a stress test mode for NXT network if you wish.

You can NOT rewrite history and be taken seriously

This is no different from Bitcoin. If 51% of miners decide to rewrite history, they can secretly mine a longer chain and reverse all txs in the orphaned chain. Bitcoin is taken seriously. Not by all.

And has all the Bitcoin miners gotten together and mined a longer chain? EVER?

devphp

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: niothor on August 15, 2014, 10:06:49 AM

bter is frozen and no trades on cryptsy in the last hours... any other exchanges to get a look at the price?

Dunno, those were the biggest, maybe dgex.com, but price would be all over the place now, I think, no reason to look at it, unless you want to buy some cheap NXTs, some people would panic sell I guess.

Topic: bter hacked and lost 50m nxt - page 20. (Read 25443 times)