bustadice – Dilution fee lowered to 1% - page 17.

CodyAlfaridzi

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Quote from: Docnaster on February 27, 2020, 06:41:03 PM

This is certainly a new platform but in the space of dice gambling there are already, no names mentioned, so many casinos that you can play dice for hours.
So what does exactly this platform bring that isn't already exist or is being utilised by the other gambling dice casinos?

I'm just trying to understand where you stand on this competition, surely this is an easy question given that probably this was the first thing you did in your market research report.

Bustadice isn't a new site. It has been running for years. Bustadice weekly wagered amount is constantly on the top among other dice sites (https://dicesites.com/).

Docnaster

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This is certainly a new platform but in the space of dice gambling there are already, no names mentioned, so many casinos that you can play dice for hours.
So what does exactly this platform bring that isn't already exist or is being utilised by the other gambling dice casinos?

I'm just trying to understand where you stand on this competition, surely this is an easy question given that probably this was the first thing you did in your market research report.

RHavar

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 27, 2020, 03:59:39 PM

I'm sorry for asking again, but still the description isn't clear enough for me. What is the moment of taking the fee? Why is the effective fee lower than 2%? And how does it work in terms of dilution itself? Could you please explain it in details? Thanks a lot in advance!

If you invest X bitcoin, busta treats it as if you invested 0.98*X and gives you a stake accordingly. Then 0.02*X gets added to the bankroll (thus profit shared amongst all investors, which you are now part of).

The idea is just to make it a fair-ish way of being reasonably expensive to invest/divest, to avoid certain types of abuse/misuse if investing/divesting was free (e.g. over-leveraging into the bankroll, then temporarily divesting when whales start playing) and compensates investors for getting diluted.

CaptainZohan

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I'm sorry for asking again, but still the description isn't clear enough for me. What is the moment of taking the fee? Why is the effective fee lower than 2%? And how does it work in terms of dilution itself? Could you please explain it in details? Thanks a lot in advance!

joksim299

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 26, 2020, 05:55:57 AM

Thank you for the detailed explanation! The fact that the comission is paid only on the net profit really calms me down. Could you please also explain the dilution fee in details?

What is the dilution fee?
To encourage long-term investments, a stable bankroll size and to reward earlier investors, there is a dilution fee of 2 % on all investments. This fee is split proportionally among all bankroll investors, including the new investor. Consequently the effective fee is always lower than 2 %.

CaptainZohan

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Thank you for the detailed explanation! The fact that the comission is paid only on the net profit really calms me down. Could you please also explain the dilution fee in details?

JollyGood

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Thank you for the explanation. I always wondered how so many investors funded so many BTC in the first place now I understand it better.

Quote from: RHavar on February 21, 2020, 05:59:59 PM

It was privately bankrolled before Daniel took over. Only BaBv2 (i.e. when Daniel took over and released the new version) was a crowd funded bankroll introduced, but by that time bustabit was pretty well-established

RHavar

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Quote from: JollyGood on February 21, 2020, 05:13:46 PM

How did the Bustabit bankroll start through? Granted Daniel purchased it when was already a successful, established and profitable business but when and how was the bankroll open to investors? I know very little about that part of the Bustabit history so am curious.

It was privately bankrolled before Daniel took over. Only BaBv2 (i.e. when Daniel took over and released the new version) was a crowd funded bankroll introduced, but by that time bustabit was pretty well-established

JollyGood

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How did the Bustabit bankroll start through? Granted Daniel purchased it when was already a successful, established and profitable business but when and how was the bankroll open to investors? I know very little about that part of the Bustabit history so am curious.

Quote from: RHavar on February 21, 2020, 12:22:39 PM

I think raising a crowd funded bankroll on bustabit on the other hand would've been way easier, it was already a massively popular and profitable business when Daniel bought it, and he already had established himself as a trustworthy person.

RHavar

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Quote from: JollyGood on February 21, 2020, 08:05:17 AM

How did the bankroll investment for Bustabit and Bustadice start? Raising that much funds for the bankroll from scratch (I presume) could not have been an easy task.

Were funds raised by asking here in the forum or by other means?

Bustadice was able to quickly raise a bankroll for two reasons (imho): they implemented the auditable provably fair system and made me auditor, which gave me the confidence to be an early investor (although worth noting, that I invested on the same terms as anyone else, I just had the ability to audit rolls).

And the second reason was due to the offsite system they implemented they were able to have a high effective bankroll while having a smaller physical bankroll. This allowed them to take on larger bets/players than otherwise would be feasible, and allow them to quickly grow to the point they could start to phase out the offsite.

I think raising a crowd funded bankroll on bustabit on the other hand would've been way easier, it was already a massively popular and profitable business when Daniel bought it, and he already had established himself as a trustworthy person.

joksim299

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Quote from: JollyGood on February 21, 2020, 08:05:17 AM

How did the bankroll investment for Bustabit and Bustadice start? Raising that much funds for the bankroll from scratch (I presume) could not have been an easy task.

Were funds raised by asking here in the forum or by other means?

Daniel and RHavar private bankroll at first then other investors joined because they both are trusted

JollyGood

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How did the bankroll investment for Bustabit and Bustadice start? Raising that much funds for the bankroll from scratch (I presume) could not have been an easy task.

Were funds raised by asking here in the forum or by other means?

RHavar

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^ What dooglus said. Busta only takes a commission on profit that is passed the previous all-time-high profit (which is shown on https://www.bustadice.com/statistics ). So right now the current investor profit is: 1253.38261259 BTC but the all-time-high is 1291.52367665 BTC which means that the next 38.14 BTC of profit is going to be commission free.

It's a poor argument, but the only reason investors have made so much money is because it's mathematically profitable.

--

Also one kind of weird thing to keep in mind, is that the busta doesn't track individual investor profit but investor profit as a group. I think there's no good reason for that other than to make the implementation fast and simple.

dooglus

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 20, 2020, 06:30:54 PM

But seems like mathematically it's unprofitable, because when a player loses - I as investor get only 50% of my profit taking into account the casino's fee, but if the player wins - I share all the risks with the casino on an equal basis. It means that my investment part will constantly decrease until it'll disappear at all.

From the FAQ:

Quote

For example, say the bankroll's all-time high profit is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustabit would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll.

It sounds like they are only taking their 50% profit on new net profits. So when the profit goes up 4 from 99 to 103 and the previous highest was 100, only 3 of the 4 is subject to commission. It's like the site remembers the high water mark, and only charges commission when that high water mark moves up.

I think that makes a difference to the mathematical expectation, leaving it positive.

rexxarofmoknathal

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 20, 2020, 04:10:45 PM

Could you please clarify investment terms? What happens when a player wins his bet? Does it decrease my investment part in the bankroll and how?

Of course, you are equally liable to lose your investment as the house is. Otherwise, why would they need you?

Over time, because of the house edge your investment should return to profit.

CaptainZohan

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But what's the purpose? With gambling at least you have an entertainment, while with such investments you just gradually lose your money. No fun, no chance to win - day by day you just see, how your investments are melting. Who are these people for whom it's okay?

imstillthebest

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 20, 2020, 06:30:54 PM

seems like mathematically it's unprofitable, because when a player loses - I as investor get only 50% of my profit taking into account the casino's fee, but if the player wins - I share all the risks with the casino on an equal basis. It means that my investment part will constantly decrease until it'll disappear at all.

of course . for what its called a gambling ? not talking on the actual gambling itself but investing is also considered as a gambling because you are risking your money for the hopes of some return .

thier system for investors sounds like a literal gambling too because of the fee which act as a house edge . on an actual gambling there was a house too that limits your ability to get maximum profit but once you loose you will loose all what you bet

CaptainZohan

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Thank you for the answer!
But seems like mathematically it's unprofitable, because when a player loses - I as investor get only 50% of my profit taking into account the casino's fee, but if the player wins - I share all the risks with the casino on an equal basis. It means that my investment part will constantly decrease until it'll disappear at all.

RHavar

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Quote from: CaptainZohan on February 20, 2020, 05:07:31 PM

You didn't understand me actually. My question is quite concrete: if I have 10B of 100B bankroll (which means I have 10% of the bankroll) and a lucky player wins 1B, so how will it affect my investing part?

When players win (or lose) your % of the bankroll remains unchanged (it only changes when you or other investors invest/divest).

So hypothetically, if you have 10 BTC of a 100 BTC bankroll -- you own 10% of the bankroll. Now if a lucky player wins 1 BTC, they win it from the bankroll. So that means the bankroll is now 99 BTC but you still own 10% of it (In other words your stake is now worth 9.9 BTC, but the % ownership is unchanged)

CaptainZohan

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You didn't understand me actually. My question is quite concrete: if I have 10B of 100B bankroll (which means I have 10% of the bankroll) and a lucky player wins 1B, so how will it affect my investing part?

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