bustadice – Dilution fee lowered to 1% - page 20.

finaleshot2016

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Congratulations on this update bustadice and happy to be part with you even though i'm just in a campaign.
This is the one of the great patch notes on a betting site that I've seen, typical update but new changes.

Quote from: JollyGood on October 02, 2019, 05:13:35 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on October 01, 2019, 08:48:10 PM

Unfortunately there aren't any other decent investment opportunities that I know about. Yolodice recently closed investment completely (I think the owner had most of the bankroll, so it makes complete sense). Crypto-Games returns are quite low. And there isn't much more.

My advice to any investor is that they should stay put and see how the format works for them because when you weigh up less profit along with safety, security and excellent reputation - sometimes it makes sense to at least invest with an almost guaranteed winner rather than website that might guarantee some profit but has nowhere near an excellent reputation as Bustabit/Bustadice.

If after a few week investors decide to pull out then at least they gave it a fair try. Hopefully they will find something else that makes them happy.

Agree, tho there's a lot of gambling sites out there that guarantees you to give huge profit but bustadice will give all you wanted, not a common gambling site and has a great reputation for how many years. Hopefully, bustadice will still continue its legacy in this scene.

JollyGood

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Quote from: Timetwister on October 01, 2019, 08:48:10 PM

Unfortunately there aren't any other decent investment opportunities that I know about. Yolodice recently closed investment completely (I think the owner had most of the bankroll, so it makes complete sense). Crypto-Games returns are quite low. And there isn't much more.

My advice to any investor is that they should stay put and see how the format works for them because when you weigh up less profit along with safety, security and excellent reputation - sometimes it makes sense to at least invest with an almost guaranteed winner rather than website that might guarantee some profit but has nowhere near an excellent reputation as Bustabit/Bustadice.

If after a few week investors decide to pull out then at least they gave it a fair try. Hopefully they will find something else that makes them happy.

Quote from: devans on October 02, 2019, 05:05:23 AM

Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 08:23:10 PM

well, if the new terms would make me decide thst it is not profitable (while it was under the old terms, expected profits decreased 33%) i will have to withdraw and i see that as a loss of 2% of my bankroll (what it would have cost me to get this bankroll invested the second before you announced this). Don't think it is fair in that way.

I do understand why you do it, but that is not important when we talk fairness. You are doing something that was not agreed on with other peoples money. imo that is unfair

As I said, you can can contact me for a reimbursement of the net dilution fee if you say you would not have invested knowing the new terms and would like to divest again. Send me a message at https://bustadice.com/support while signed in to your account.

I think it was the fact you did not make an announcement (though explained why) which was the reason that there has been some discontent. Had you made it before implementing the new format nobody would have had a reason to complain.

I still see most investors staying put because the reputation and honesty of the websites and its owner is paramount for most investors.

devans

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Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 08:23:10 PM

well, if the new terms would make me decide thst it is not profitable (while it was under the old terms, expected profits decreased 33%) i will have to withdraw and i see that as a loss of 2% of my bankroll (what it would have cost me to get this bankroll invested the second before you announced this). Don't think it is fair in that way.

I do understand why you do it, but that is not important when we talk fairness. You are doing something that was not agreed on with other peoples money. imo that is unfair

As I said, you can can contact me for a reimbursement of the net dilution fee if you say you would not have invested knowing the new terms and would like to divest again. Send me a message at https://bustadice.com/support while signed in to your account.

Timetwister

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Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: devans on October 01, 2019, 11:07:25 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 06:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

I referenced the explanation you gave and thanked you for it.

Anyway it seems you are going full steam ahead and from what can be seen here there are a few investors that have expressed some reservations but there is no flood of complaints or grievances. If the profits still provide a good return for investors even after dropping approximately 33% then surely they would remain rather than pull their funds out.

Unfortunately there aren't any other decent investment opportunities that I know about. Yolodice recently closed investment completely (I think the owner had most of the bankroll, so it makes complete sense). Crypto-Games returns are quite low. And there isn't much more.

leen1993

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Quote from: devans on October 01, 2019, 11:07:25 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 06:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

well, if the new terms would make me decide thst it is not profitable (while it was under the old terms, expected profits decreased 33%) i will have to withdraw and i see that as a loss of 2% of my bankroll (what it would have cost me to get this bankroll invested the second before you announced this). Don't think it is fair in that way.

I do understand why you do it, but that is not important when we talk fairness. You are doing something that was not agreed on with other peoples money. imo that is unfair

JollyGood

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Quote from: devans on October 01, 2019, 11:07:25 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 06:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

I referenced the explanation you gave and thanked you for it.

Anyway it seems you are going full steam ahead and from what can be seen here there are a few investors that have expressed some reservations but there is no flood of complaints or grievances. If the profits still provide a good return for investors even after dropping approximately 33% then surely they would remain rather than pull their funds out.

devans

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Quote from: redsun114 on October 01, 2019, 11:41:13 AM

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 04:58:08 AM

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

So, this change looks like its gonna be a bit more "less risk less reward" for investors and "more risk more reward" for gamblers, did I get it correctly? Sorry I am not a big math guy and English is my second language so I may not get all of it right.

From the looks of it, investors will not have to share commissions on losses, which is a great deal for the investors, however they will share a bigger pie when gamblers lose, which kinda means to me that they will have less risk which is always awesome but it will have less rewards as well, kinda understandable if you ask me.

On the gambler side only thing that changes is the ability to be able to wager higher bets and that's about it, which means if they can bet bigger they could win bigger or lose bigger as well, so higher risk but higher rewards as well. Let's wait and see how these changes will impact on investors and gamblers in long run so that they may decide further.

Yeah, that's the gist of it. It's worth clarifying that the higher limits don't affect the majority of players, i.e. the "more risk more reward" part only applies to players that actually make use of the new limits.

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 04:58:08 AM

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

So, this change looks like its gonna be a bit more "less risk less reward" for investors and "more risk more reward" for gamblers, did I get it correctly? Sorry I am not a big math guy and English is my second language so I may not get all of it right.

From the looks of it, investors will not have to share commissions on losses, which is a great deal for the investors, however they will share a bigger pie when gamblers lose, which kinda means to me that they will have less risk which is always awesome but it will have less rewards as well, kinda understandable if you ask me.

On the gambler side only thing that changes is the ability to be able to wager higher bets and that's about it, which means if they can bet bigger they could win bigger or lose bigger as well, so higher risk but higher rewards as well. Let's wait and see how these changes will impact on investors and gamblers in long run so that they may decide further.

devans

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Quote from: GamblingSiteFinder on October 01, 2019, 10:55:09 AM

Quote from: Sirait on October 01, 2019, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 08:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

Were there terms in the FAQ that said the Bustabit bankroll investing structure would/could be changed at a moment's notice?

You're right that it isn't stealing, but it's also not what investors agreed to when they joined.

The terms of service state that they can be revised at any time. In addition there is precedent for changing the terms in the past (e.g. lowering and increasing the dilution fee, lowering permitted leverage).

That being said, if anybody recently invested and would not have done so had they known about the change in commission structure I would be happy to reimburse them for the net dilution fee they paid.

devans

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Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 06:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

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Quote from: Sirait on October 01, 2019, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 08:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

Were there terms in the FAQ that said the Bustabit bankroll investing structure would/could be changed at a moment's notice?

You're right that it isn't stealing, but it's also not what investors agreed to when they joined.

Sirait

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Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 08:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

leen1993

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Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

JollyGood

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Quote from: Timetwister on October 01, 2019, 02:28:54 AM

No investor would ever prefer this formula. This is essentially dropping our expected returns by 1/3.

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:27:34 PM

Although I'm sure at least a few of them appreciate the reduced variance, there's no doubt that most investors prefer the old commission structure. I anticipate that some investors will choose to divest because of this. As long as the bankroll remains large enough to support the wagers players want to place that's okay.

At 5,000+ BTC and 6,500+ respectively the bankrolls of both bustadice and bustabit are significantly larger than they need to be, which indicates that a higher commission is appropriate. As the bankroll shrinks–hopefully to a more sane size–investing becomes more attractive until eventually an equilibrium is reached again.

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

Timetwister

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 04:58:08 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 03:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

No investor would ever prefer this formula. This is essentially dropping our expected returns by 1/3.

Hunterqr

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Quote from: dbshck on August 21, 2019, 10:21:13 AM

Quote from: Lakai01 on August 21, 2019, 10:19:01 AM

Hi devans!
First of all I like the look and feel of bustadice very much, its one of the most professional looking sites out there in my opinion. Windice eg. shows the amount of total bets played, total users online etc. at the top of the page. Are there such statistics anywhere at bustadice, couldnt find them

https://bustadice.com/statistics
https://dicesites.com/bustadice

Yes i also see this platform.thanks for known this platform

devans

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 10:11:49 AM

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

Although I'm sure at least a few of them appreciate the reduced variance, there's no doubt that most investors prefer the old commission structure. I anticipate that some investors will choose to divest because of this. As long as the bankroll remains large enough to support the wagers players want to place that's okay.

At 5,000+ BTC and 6,500+ respectively the bankrolls of both bustadice and bustabit are significantly larger than they need to be, which indicates that a higher commission is appropriate. As the bankroll shrinks–hopefully to a more sane size–investing becomes more attractive until eventually an equilibrium is reached again.

JollyGood

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 04:58:08 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 03:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

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All we know that dice game is the most popular game in every crypto gaming site because it is easy to play. On this site it show the real essens of gambling because of high limit of bet. And the good thing about this site is you can receive compensation that other betting site can't do. And in terms of fairness and security it has a great features.

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 03:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Topic: bustadice – Dilution fee lowered to 1% - page 20. (Read 37217 times)