Butterfly Labs - page 5. | Bitcointalksearch.org

glitch003

full member

Activity: 219

Merit: 101

Quote from: charleshoskinson on April 25, 2013, 01:13:46 PM

After much discussion on this forum regarding the business practices of Butterfly labs [BFL], it has become clear to me that there are several unanswered questions. Should BFL not commit to a ship date for their ASICs by the end of April and independent members of this community verify that they have received the product they ordered, I will draft an open letter to BFL. Its purpose is to determine the following:

When did BFL have a working prototype of at least one of the ASIC products and how did they infer their engineering claims for both performance and power consumption?
Will BFL consent to an independent audit of their corporation accounts?
Did BFL finance (in part or fully) the development of their product line from preorders?
Who is currently fabricating the chips within their products and can BFL produce on demand the contract signed with said fabricator?
What is BFL's estimated shipping volume for ordered units per month
How was BFL able to sustain itself during the delays?
Has BFL engaged in mining and if so for how long and to what extent?

This list is a starting point. I'd like the engineers, accountants and legal professionals in this community to chime in to contribute their concerns. We have a duty to self-regulate and root out fraud where it occurs. Many people here have invested in BFL products and this forum runs ads.

BFL has responded to nothing so far. But I'm sure an angry letter will change that! They'll read it and panic and reply immediately, I'm sure!

Or they'll ignore it and laugh while sitting on their pile of money. Stop wasting your time.

hammz

member

Activity: 143

Merit: 10

Not sure why anyone would hand over cash to a company that doesn't have any product to deliver, especially if they are a new company, unless you have money to burn that is.

Maybe ask someone that you just met to hold some gold for you for a few months, then demand they give you a nice crisp paper receipt in return so you can sleep at night?

Can't see any business being in business for long operating on this model moving forward.

Best of luck to all that ordered.

jml

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: charleshoskinson on April 25, 2013, 01:13:46 PM

After much discussion on this forum regarding the business practices of Butterfly labs [BFL], it has become clear to me that there are several unanswered questions. Should BFL not commit to a ship date for their ASICs by the end of April and independent members of this community verify that they have received the product they ordered, I will draft an open letter to BFL. Its purpose is to determine the following:

When did BFL have a working prototype of at least one of the ASIC products and how did they infer their engineering claims for both performance and power consumption?
Will BFL consent to an independent audit of their corporation accounts?
Did BFL finance (in part or fully) the development of their product line from preorders?
Who is currently fabricating the chips within their products and can BFL produce on demand the contract signed with said fabricator?
What is BFL's estimated shipping volume for ordered units per month
How was BFL able to sustain itself during the delays?
Has BFL engaged in mining and if so for how long and to what extent?

This list is a starting point. I'd like the engineers, accountants and legal professionals in this community to chime in to contribute their concerns. We have a duty to self-regulate and root out fraud where it occurs. Many people here have invested in BFL products and this forum runs ads.

Suppose you draft and send off the letter and BFL PR never answers back? What would be next? Sue them?

Now my question:
Since they have also outsourced the procurement of ASIC chips, did they also outsource firmware development of the mining devices? This would also add delays if problems are spotted on the way.

bitcoinminer

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 252

Look at it this way though, if they ARE truly going to put these products out, it's essentially going to be the end of mining for most of us.

bassclef

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Good luck with this. As a newcomer to the community, I am pretty unimpressed by BFL's practices, mainly their lack of truthful communication with the community and inability to deliver on promises and timelines made. There are indeed questions to be answered, and the threat of a class-action lawsuit would surely motivate them to be more forthcoming.

bitcoinminer

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 252

I'm taking preorders for my Lunar Lander home assembly kits... ;-)

Minor Miner

legendary

Activity: 2380

Merit: 1019

Be A Digital Miner

I wish you luck, sincerely. I think the damage they have done is real and will last, hopefully raising the bar on future businesses. On the bright side, for people mining, they have removed a lot of competition for a long time from the market.
I think you can trust Greenberg up in winnipeg and he has dismantled the 4GH/s thing that they sent him. He is easy to PM and quite responsive I am sure. He has one, they are 'real'. Not what was sold nor what was hyped, but real.

charleshoskinson

legendary

Activity: 1134

Merit: 1008

CEO of IOHK

Quote

If by ponzi scheme you mean they have funded R&D and operational expenses with pre-order money, I do not think there can be any doubt of that. But why do you think they are going to tell you that? Why would they, as it is not to their advantage and it would hurt their image. I do not understand what leverage you think you are going to have over someone that regularly belittles anyone who criticizes him and has made it obvious that he does not even have the technical knowledge to understand that some of the criticism could have saved his company money and time as it was pointing out major FLAWS in BFL's claims.

People have been warned and have bought with knowledge of the risk, let them lose their money assuming they will get out before it becomes unprofitable.

I am beginning to doubt that actually ever built a functional product. The questions I have asked will determine if this is true and also explain the persistent delays. As for leverage, an open letter is the first step in a legal process for a class action lawsuit and I will also use some of my friends in the government to pursue a consumer fraud investigation. The more public the open letter gets and the more questions that get broadcast to the open domain, the more cancellations will occur. Also if they refuse to answer basic questions regarding their operations, then it is my hope this forum will pull their ads of BFL.

I am completely serious about this pursuit. We cannot allow fraud to exist in this form in our community. It would be one thing for a failed kickstarter or if a company was transparent with their failures, but it is entirely different to make bold market claims and then consistently not deliver without any explanation while continuing to take orders.

Minor Miner

legendary

Activity: 2380

Merit: 1019

Be A Digital Miner

Quote from: charleshoskinson on April 25, 2013, 02:21:40 PM

It has entered the realm of possibility that BFL is actually a ponzi scheme. We as a community need to determine this quickly.

If by ponzi scheme you mean they have funded R&D and operational expenses with pre-order money, I do not think there can be any doubt of that. But why do you think they are going to tell you that? Why would they, as it is not to their advantage and it would hurt their image. I do not understand what leverage you think you are going to have over someone that regularly belittles anyone who criticizes him and has made it obvious that he does not even have the technical knowledge to understand that some of the criticism could have saved his company money and time as it was pointing out major FLAWS in BFL's claims.

People have been warned and have bought with knowledge of the risk, let them lose their money assuming they will get out before it becomes unprofitable.

glendall

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1018

Buzz App - Spin wheel, farm rewards

That's valid; sounds reasonable. I don't have any pre-orders myself so maybe I'll just not get involved in these threads...

charleshoskinson

legendary

Activity: 1134

Merit: 1008

CEO of IOHK

Quote

(aka a good faith investment in the development of product that didn't exist

This is not necessarily true. Almost all legitimate companies accept preorders only when they have a clear concept that the finished product is within some scope of completion. Delays can certainly occur, but not in the years and not so far outside spec. The wattage spec increased by an order of magnitude. This isn't something that is common from prototype to finished product unless they didn't have one when they were accepting preorders. That's fine, but they have a legal obligation to inform those ordering that their orders are going to fund the creation of a completely new product. This would be a kickstarter project.

It has entered the realm of possibility that BFL is actually a ponzi scheme. We as a community need to determine this quickly.

glendall

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1018

Buzz App - Spin wheel, farm rewards

Think it's all been said many times. Much of those bullets above can be found with some forum searching. At this point I think it's just up to customers to either get a refund for their 'pre-order' (aka a good faith investment in the development of product that didn't exist) or just continue to wait another 1.5 / 2 months when they are making the products finally, in bulk.

charleshoskinson

legendary

Activity: 1134

Merit: 1008

CEO of IOHK

After much discussion on this forum regarding the business practices of Butterfly labs [BFL], it has become clear to me that there are several unanswered questions. Should BFL not commit to a ship date for their ASICs by the end of April and independent members of this community verify that they have received the product they ordered, I will draft an open letter to BFL. Its purpose is to determine the following:

When did BFL have a working prototype of at least one of the ASIC products and how did they infer their engineering claims for both performance and power consumption?
Will BFL consent to an independent audit of their corporation accounts?
Did BFL finance (in part or fully) the development of their product line from preorders?
Who is currently fabricating the chips within their products and can BFL produce on demand the contract signed with said fabricator?
What is BFL's estimated shipping volume for ordered units per month
How was BFL able to sustain itself during the delays?
Has BFL engaged in mining and if so for how long and to what extent?

This list is a starting point. I'd like the engineers, accountants and legal professionals in this community to chime in to contribute their concerns. We have a duty to self-regulate and root out fraud where it occurs. Many people here have invested in BFL products and this forum runs ads.

Topic: Butterfly Labs - page 5. (Read 9783 times)