Topic: Butterfly Labs announcing new preorder marketplace - page 2. (Read 7650 times)

Sounds painfully correct. Their progress has been incredibly slow, with them moving on a single product (Jalapeno) at an accelerated rate not remotely linear with a different product (singles). It could take them until late october to catch up to July orders, and possibly some time in december before they catch up the last pre-order.

In my opinion, they are simply using new "orders"/pre-orders to keep up with producing orders from 7-12 months earlier.

Sounds legit. BFL self mine - check. Avalon self mine - check. Bitfury self mine - check. Only one of these actually conducted themselves with integrity. Bitfury announced months ago they'd be self mining their hardware, the other two specifically said they would not mine main net with customer gear.

That's most of why I follow these forums.  I'm too dumb for bitcoin, but in a few years things will be quite different from now, and no one will believe the shenanigans going on years 1 through 5 if they weren't here reading it happen.

Being here to read this stuff is like being in Bethlehem a couple thousand years ago, or maybe Sodom and Gomorrah.

BTW, I gotta believe for every one miner that the new ASIC vendors ship, they're gonna put 6, 8, or 10 on line for themselves.  It's a good use of their NRE paid by pre-orders.

That shouldn't be a long term issue, so far only BFL and Avalon have failed to ship as promised, the other ASIC vendors will have an easy opportunity to outperform those two, which should bring back some credibility to the BTC mining hardware industry.

 FWIW, I just doubled-down on Bitfury and bought a second 400GH/s rig from BuzzDave for October.

 Don't see anything else as being a reasonable purchase before this year is over.

Previously, BFL was allowing customers to exchange their orders informally. Which means they (BFL) didn't have to change their pre-order books nor the names or the addresses. It was an informal agreement between one customer to another that when BFL sent the order to the re-seller, they (the reseller) would take it upon themselves to forward the order to the new customer.

Now in this recent change, BFL is actively (formally) changing their database and allowing customers access to change the address and name of the order to someone else.

See the previous post as to why this is problematic.

The third vulnerability is just like the second scenario:


CC companies do not allow you to send a product to another unregistered address. BFL stopped giving people address changes for that specific reason.

Lets say you moved to another house in the same city, you then contact BFL with your new address that you have moved to, but you fail to contact your CC company with the new address to have it registered on file at the CC company.

When BFL ships you your product to this alternative address, they open themselves up to a dispute that you can then file after you have received your product in hand.

You can simply call the CC company and claim you never received it or that it was sent to the wrong address.

That is why some buyers send items to their friends house. So they can then use this as an excuse to defraud a company with an unregistered address and claim non-receipt.

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This very same hole is being opened up by BFL intentionally by shuffling around orders and changing things.

It would probably be very hard to deal with a CC company who rightfully states that their order Payment system shows something entirely different from BFL's ordering system.

BFL saying anything about shuffling orders around won't really hold any water. (IMO)

The only problem I see with the double tap actually happening is that CGM was supposed to give AEK the payment not BFL.  I very definitely could be wrong on this but its my understanding.

Not trying to pick your post apart. Actually just wondering if I am wrong about this.

Regards,

That is very good for my Chi

cheers,
kev

Pretty much.

Except that whoever invented this gamble of a strategy must also know there are very grave, potentially fatal (to BFL as a business) problems.

The first problems is obvious, this could accelerate refunds rather than slow them down!

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Let me explain,

If people like CGM in your recent example can't sell off their September 9/2013 paydate on the very same market, then they are 10 times more likely to ask for a refund (and actually get it). They are probably still within the refund window which paypal or CC companies will still take them seriously.

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Another gamble that opens the door to a refund "double tap":

The other gamble is that BFL must realize that payment processors like Visa, Mastercard, AmEx etc, won't stand for BFL's reshuffle of orders. A CC company expects BFL to keep accurate records on customer orders.

If AEK (Order date 9/2012) sells to CGM her order spot (Order date 9/2013) and BFL changes the name AND Address of the order to CGM's name. (Which you shouldn't do because a CC company won't protect you if you do this!)

Well....after receiving payment from CGM...AEK could ask for her refund from her CC company and leave CGM without both her money and a legitimate order spot. When BFL has to respond to the CC company about the chargeback they will have to announce that the payment on file now belongs to CGM and not AEK.

The CC company is going to be bewildered as to how BFL expects a payment to be switched over to another customer. What will likely ensue is that the CC company will say that they don't give a damn who the order was transferred to in BFL internal order system, they have AEK as the payment and they will issue AEK a refund at BFL's expense.

Leaving CGM without her order spot, minus a large amount of $$$.

CGM will then probably seek a refund from BFL for her own order paydate (9/2013) and BFL will get a second chargeback.

The only one who would come out ahead in the double tap scenario will be AEK. Who got her ROI the instant she sold her order and then asked for a refund regardless for the 9/2012 pay date.

BFL won't really have much of a defense about shuffling their payment processors orders.

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It is all a gamble that hinges on no one figuring out these vulnerabilities. Quite the gamble!

The one thing I have to say is that BFL as a company concerning their tactics don't reflect very well on BTC as a whole considering US lawmakers are looking at what sort of regulation should be in place.I don't think BFL will last 2 more years and some might actually be prosecuted under US law.

Theoretically these were liquidated by bitpay when AEK placed the original order and the proceeds, less fees, were sent on to bfl, but we don't know with any degree of certainty as bfl has never(to my knowledge) defined their arrangement with bitpay.

The marketplace has changed. There is no point ordering anything from BFL anymore until they actually have stock on hand.

The ROI on BFL pre-orders has been terrible, most people will not make the money back they have paid out for the pre-order because of the slow production line. The practical solution is not to order. I am not suggesting don't buy BFL, just don't pre-order, wait until they have stock so you can punch into a Bitcoin calculator and work out if it's worth buying. The gen1 product is obviously not worth buying unless they at least halve the price. The Monarch quite likely will not be worth buying if it ships in February. Best hold on to your money until February and then make the calculation. You could easily find BFL will have to halve the price of the Monarch in February to be competitive, so it would be crazy to pay for it now.

I know other ASIC vendors will be reducing their prices before the end of the year. KNCminer have already announced price reductions on Nov delivery.

The ASIC industry is coming up for a massive shake out, the winner will be the companies that have stock on hand.

Selling places on a pre-order queue is absurd.

AMAZING COMPANY!!

They never stop to amaze me.

Will it work like this?

Alice Ellen Krauss (AEK) pays 20 BTC ($12 USD each) in September of 2012 for a 5Gh/s miner preorder.
Tired of waiting in September of 2013, AEK sells her preorder to Carol Grace Miller (CGM) for 3BTC ($120 each), figuring she's $100 ahead, or so.

So AEK gives 20 BTC to the middleman in 9/12.
CGM gives 3 BTC to AEK in 9/13, and AEK calls it quits.

Who's the middleman between AEK and CGM that keeps the other 17 BTC, which are now worth about $2000 total?

And is it a coincidence that the chief ombudsman of bitcointalk is being hosted about the same time all this is happening?

(ANN)  Group Buy on life insurance for one particular woodsman.  Expiring in 2 days (the Group Buy, that is).

So this is where all pro-BFL can circlejerk with their non-delivered techologically outdated preorders?

I feel good about going with BitFury instead, my rigs are hashing away after 40 days of ordering and using only <0.7W/GH while beeing passively cooled.
It seems like a good idea to fold with BFL and ask for a refund from my point of view.

There is a definite collaboration going on...

All I can say is that Josh is now one EVIL fucking Mofo.... as he has now been trained by one of the best criminal minds i have seen

(Once again Crypto turns in a movie set ....)

Hey maybe we should check teh records..Was not Sonny in state fed with MAddoff ??

ALso here is the current cast for...da..da...dah....da..da..dah

 "Coin WARZ............. the ASICS strike back "

Sonny is "The Sith Emperor"
Josh is "Darth Vader"
Yifu is Luke

Except this version Luke turns to the dark side & stays there ..lolz

Is so bad its funny

Except for... imagine if u are one of teh Mininrig guys who have poured 100k into this cluster fuck

Anyone wanna bet Sonny is NOT the "mastermind"........anymore........ 

Who knows Bitcoin better than him Who knows what drives miners better than him Who knows the Bitcoin community better than him   Hmmmmm........................

I just went to put my 7g/h order 6/6/13 up for sale and the classified section at BFL is locked...