Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 15.

nottm28

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 06:37:40 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 06:25:35 PM

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

I do not mind, but would you please be so kind to include a link? There are 49 pages of this thread, so finding the right post is a fairly non-trivial task, unless you know what you are looking for exactly.

Actually I'd rather not. I really don't mind if you don't want to read the thread before offering your opinion. If you just want to try and re-create the argument that has already been... I'll just skip over your posts.

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 06:25:35 PM

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

I do not mind, but would you please be so kind to include a link? There are 49 pages of this thread, so finding the right post is a fairly non-trivial task, unless you know what you are looking for exactly.

nottm28

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 06:21:46 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 06:12:22 PM

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

I am not sure what you mean by "given the facts and numbers." The law does seem to be quite strongly in favour of Xian.

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on May 26, 2013, 06:19:37 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 04:31:02 PM

UCC broadens the damages, because it also allows incidental and consequential damages. It also explicitly allows for recovery of "cover" costs, that is, the purchase of a substitute item.

You mean I could buy an Avalon as a "cover cost". The law is a wonderful process. (I am joking/kidding)

You may be kidding, but depending on the circumstances, it may be a valid action, and yes, BFL may be on the hook.

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 06:12:22 PM

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

I am not sure what you mean by "given the facts and numbers." The law does seem to be quite strongly in favour of Xian.

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on May 26, 2013, 04:27:40 PM

[A forward contract is precisely a "contract for sale of future goods." Xian bought a forward contract. Forward contracts need not specify an exact time in the future to be executed. The traditional measure of damages for a seller’s breach of contract is the difference between the market price and the contract price. The UCC retains this rule.

UCC broadens the damages, because it also allows incidental and consequential damages. It also explicitly allows for recovery of "cover" costs, that is, the purchase of a substitute item.

You mean I could buy an Avalon as a "cover cost". The law is a wonderful process. (I am joking/kidding)

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As if by magic ^^^

PuertoLibre

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 04:18:07 PM

A judge will be considering whether in light of an indicated delivery time of October 2012, non-delivery by May 2013 is "reasonable." All I can say that I would not want to be counsel for BFL at that hearing...

No kidding, I was thinking this exact same thought while reading your posts.

They would have one hell of a time coming out of that courtroom unscathed. Whats worse, I believe if a case is extremely similar to another case, the people asking for money can ask for a summary judgement by simply referring to another case where the decision went in their favor. (assuming they make the exact same scenario over again)

If that is the case, then this opens the door to Butterfly Labs opening themselves to a legal attack strategy and losing every time if they even lose once. It is conceivable (I think) that if the community prepared a pamphlet for how to execute an effective case against Butterly Labs then, they can very well get down to dealing with BFL in court for losses and damages incurred from lengthy and unreasonable promises.

I am of the thought that this may lead to BFL simply bending over with settlements every time a horde shows up in court. Then again, if you have a winning case, why would you settle in the first place?

Just some thoughts.

nottm28

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 06:02:09 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:42:18 PM

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

That is very kind of you to say, but I must confess that I am not a lawyer. I am a mathematician.

My legal experience is mainly is in the area of air passenger rights (which is an interesting mix of contract law, regulatory law, and administrative law):

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/canadas-airline-industry

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

[EDIT] ... enter puerto - the champion

nottm28

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Quote from: k9quaint on May 26, 2013, 05:59:14 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:42:18 PM

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

Actually, it was partially thanks to you. In 2012, BFL entered into a forward contract to provide future goods with Xian in exchange for capital upfront. This is a very common occurrence in agriculture for crops, fuel, equipement, seed, fertilizer, etc. It is also common in resource extraction industries like mining (how apropos).

As you noted, these contracts increased dramatically in value since they were first purchased in 2012. You also noted that Xian should have been able to sell another forward contract for the delivery of his units to a third party for a healthy profit. BFL unilaterally terminated the contract, but they did not compensate Xian for market value, only the original face value. BFL then sold the rights to Xian's units to someone else for a higher return. The whole point of a forward contract is to obtain future goods at a fixed price. If the seller could unilaterally change the price at their whim, no forward contract would ever be worth entering.

It should be quite trivial for Xian to obtain a remedy. The courts would probably not be involved unless BFL was unable to pay. It is possible I suppose, that BFL would fight it for pride's sake. I really can't see them winning. This is a clear case of breach of contract.

Assuming xian is willing to pay the $10k initial fee to get one of those 'good' lawyers on his side to file the initial lawsuit. I doubt that he would and I doubt he would win anyway. BFL would likely file a counter lawsuit for defamation - eventually they would both 'lose' - the 'good' lawyers would win and xian would be out of pocket big time. Like I said you are building up his hopes for no real outcome.

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Quote from: PuertoLibre on May 26, 2013, 06:04:28 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

+1 more public exposure of Josh/Inaba and his bullshit.

PuertoLibre

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:42:18 PM

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

That is very kind of you to say, but I must confess that I am not a lawyer. I am a mathematician.

My legal experience is mainly is in the area of air passenger rights (which is an interesting mix of contract law, regulatory law, and administrative law):

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/canadas-airline-industry

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:42:18 PM

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

Actually, it was partially thanks to you. In 2012, BFL entered into a forward contract to provide future goods with Xian in exchange for capital upfront. This is a very common occurrence in agriculture for crops, fuel, equipement, seed, fertilizer, etc. It is also common in resource extraction industries like mining (how apropos).

As you noted, these contracts increased dramatically in value since they were first purchased in 2012. You also noted that Xian should have been able to sell another forward contract for the delivery of his units to a third party for a healthy profit. BFL unilaterally terminated the contract, but they did not compensate Xian for market value, only the original face value. BFL then sold the rights to Xian's units to someone else for a higher return. The whole point of a forward contract is to obtain future goods at a fixed price. If the seller could unilaterally change the price at their whim, no forward contract would ever be worth entering.

It should be quite trivial for Xian to obtain a remedy. The courts would probably not be involved unless BFL was unable to pay. It is possible I suppose, that BFL would fight it for pride's sake. I really can't see them winning. This is a clear case of breach of contract.

nottm28

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Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 05:20:23 PM

Quote from: Endlessa on May 26, 2013, 04:33:06 PM

the word repudiate. I didn't see anything in the definitions section that indicates anything that alters the common language definition

I suggest that you look it up this term in Black's Law dictionary (page 1330 in the 8th edition).

In the context of contract law it means "to indicate an intention not to perform."

Quote from: Endlessa on May 26, 2013, 04:33:06 PM

So the point of contention/qualification is failure to deliver. This get complicated by the statement "currently scheduled for October", so the burden of proof would be: Was there a point that bfl said "It's definately coming out in two weeks"?. Am I following this correctly? Did I miss something?

There are two issues:

(a) Did the seller indicate in any way (e.g., by issuing a refund with the buyer requesting so) refusal to perform? If yes, then it was repudiation.

(b) Did the seller fail to deliver within the timeframe set out in the contract, or in the absence of such a stipulation, with reasonable time?

Yay I can put that dictionary on my phone

I've never seen that resource

Ok I'm typing up/posting what I've learned so far. . . .

I feel so educated now

heheh

*bows to drlukacs*

nottm28

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 05:34:08 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:26:09 PM

In the UK we used to see litigation as a last resort for the genuinely aggreived - but now we are becoming an 'ambulance chaser insurance claim litigation' society too I fear...

Do you believe that Xian is not genuinely aggrieved...?

If I were in BFL's place, I would apologize to Xian, and ship him his order ASAP, because of the bad publicity, and the possible damage that a lawsuit may cause to their reputation, and also due to the potential costs of a lawsuit. While Xian can take them to small claims court and be self-represented, BFL will need to retain a lawyer, because they are a corporation.

Sigh - you came into the thread late too per chance?

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:26:09 PM

In the UK we used to see litigation as a last resort for the genuinely aggreived - but now we are becoming an 'ambulance chaser insurance claim litigation' society too I fear...

Do you believe that Xian is not genuinely aggrieved...?

If I were in BFL's place, I would apologize to Xian, and ship him his order ASAP, because of the bad publicity, and the possible damage that a lawsuit may cause to their reputation, and also due to the potential costs of a lawsuit. While Xian can take them to small claims court and be self-represented, BFL will need to retain a lawyer, because they are a corporation.

nottm28

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 26, 2013, 05:22:01 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:14:16 PM

I know there are some in America who like litigation but don't you think you are just building up xian's hopes? Talk about kick a man while he's down...

Litigation is a question of stamina and money. But if some state of federal consumer protection agency gets on Xian's side, then I think BFL is going to be very quickly in a very tight spot.

US is a place where law enforcement people have no sense of humor: they know that enforceability of contracts is vital for a functional economy.

In the UK we used to see litigation as a last resort for the genuinely aggreived - but now we are becoming an 'ambulance chaser insurance claim litigation' society too I fear...

drlukacs

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Quote from: nottm28 on May 26, 2013, 05:14:16 PM

I know there are some in America who like litigation but don't you think you are just building up xian's hopes? Talk about kick a man while he's down...

Litigation is a question of stamina and money. But if some state of federal consumer protection agency gets on Xian's side, then I think BFL is going to be very quickly in a very tight spot.

US is a place where law enforcement people have no sense of humor: they know that enforceability of contracts is vital for a functional economy.

Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 15. (Read 59178 times)