Topic: Buy the DIP, and HODL! - page 427. (Read 136711 times)

Whoops.

I made the mistake of not specifying in regards to shitcoins, so we should not even have had gone there... to be referring to someone who is really retarded, and I was trying to suggest a kind of normal investment choice that someone might have various investments in his investment portfolio that includes stocks, property, bonds, commodities and cash/cash equivalents, and no I was not suggesting shitcoins, because shitcoins would be 10% or less the size of the bitcoin investment.  So yeah, as soon as you bring shitcoins into the mix as if they were a normal thing to be tempted about, it shows that we are considering the starting points from different places in order to figure out what might be a practical and/or realistic posture for someone getting into bitcoin and maybe maintaining his/her bitcoin investment through the years.

So if the newbie bitcoiner is starting out with an investment portfolio of around $100k , then maybe he could be considering anywhere between 1% to 25% as his starting off point in terms of an allocation into bitcoin, and if he is more whimpy then he would go with 1% and if he is more aggressive he would go with 25%, so I was choosing somewhere in the middle, which also could have had been 12.5%, which also seems to be a bit more aggressive than any average skeptical bitcoin newbie might be.. .

So, if we end up flipping the script and talking about shitcoins being 90%, we are getting into gambling and way off this topic, and we may as well just either denigrate those kinds of folks or if we want to be more friendly, to suggest that they have those kinds of gambling/trading topics in some other thread.. because it is no longer really seriously about bitcoin... or the possible issues that we might be having with this thread both in terms of longer term bitcoin investing, but also some of the dilemmas that guys likely have when they are first establishing a bitcoin position and then ongoingly accumulating during ongoing and inevitable bitcoin volatility.


You raise a lot of decent points regarding the various ways to consider risk, and surely position size can be a very decent way of dealing with a lot of the aspects of the risks that you mentioned, and surely one can invest into bitcoin and to learn as he goes, and maybe if he starts out investing $100 per week and studying bitcoin, and maybe during that process he realizes that after 10 weeks he has invested around $1k, and maybe he needs to learn about and put private holdings into practice, which would also consider figuring out how much security is necessary and what are the various ways to hold his keys.

There can be a lot of responsibilities in becoming your own bank, and a lot of power too, but also some potential challenges in learning how to do each of these things, including that normies might not have a lot of time that they can spend studying and figuring out various aspects of bitcoin, so even after 10 weeks to 26 weeks (half a year), there still might be a lot of ways that a person still needs to continue to learn and put matters into practice - especially if a decent portion of value might need to go into private storage rather than being held by third parties.


These are good points because many people miscalculate their ability to live off of bitcoin (or even crypto and/or trading), and having a job (or cashflow) is very powerful in investing, and maybe if you have a cashflow and you even aggressively go way beyond the normal 10%-ish area of saving investing and you are able to get to 30% or 40% or even 50% invested into bitcoin, then you may well be able to reach one years salary expenses in just a few years, and surely after several years, you could reach to several years, and if your investment performs fairly well, you might be able to get to 20x to 30x your salary in 10-15 years, which would put you into fuck you status where you are able to quit your job, live off of your investments, and you would not need to dip into the principle, you would be living off the income from the investment...

and sure, I might be painting a rosy picture in regards to how long it might take to get to a point of being able to seriously and meaningfully pull the fuck you lever, and surely anyone who is pulling the fuck you lever too soon, is likely failing/refusing to consider and appreciate how much their investment portfolio needs to be worth before you would be able to sustainably live off of it without draining the principle.. which is also another problem with trading in that people who have to live off the income of their trading, is likely putting themselves in a position where they are never really able to get the benefits of compounding value because they are frequently and consistently needing to withdraw value from their funds that they consider to be "earnings and/or profits" but withdrawing those profits/earnings too quickly never allow them to compound and that person may never be able to become rich with such wheel spinning and likely inabilities to grow his investment portfolio to get to a size that is high enough to allow his withdrawals to be sustainable and even the needs for growth to be built in to the amounts that can be withdrawn to be increasing with the passage of time rather than either staying stagnant or reducing.


Actually, that story of your friend sounds very practical cryptoWODL.  There is a kind of consistency, persistence and ongoing learning, with built in aggressiveness, and sure there are other ways of building up aggressiveness, but if we start out with a small amount, we can get used to it, and then we might have a whole year to plan ahead in regards to how we are going to deal with an increased amount going into bitcoin, which might be cutting of expenses or increases in income.

I would then suggest that you shouldn't let your wife hold your private keys for you. OR not to let her know that you do HODL Bitcoin. I'm merely joking, or probably half-joking. Haha.

Another suggestion you could do if you're already married is, probably delay having kids? Less expenses =More savings. What's more two years of waiting while you're preparing your finances for your future.

There is no specific amount required to invest in Bitcoin. Nowhere is it written that investing in Bitcoin requires a huge amount of money to be invested. Anyone can start investing in Bitcoin with any amount of money.
There are also people who start investing in Bitcoin with a very small amount of money in the beginning and gradually increase it later.

I had a friend who knew about Bitcoin a long time ago and had a very good understanding of Bitcoin and is now a successful investor. When I asked him the reason behind his investment success, he told me that the first day he invested in Bitcoin, he started investing with just $27.He was then working in a government job and withdrawing money from there to invest in bitcoins.He used to work in the government and got a monthly salary of one hundred and fifty thousand taka, ie 1500 dollars. For the first year, he invested $70 per month.The following year he increased that to $100 and he increased his investment by $30 per month every year. Thus he invested in Bitcoin for 8 years.

Currently he has accumulated houses, cars and land with his Bitcoin investments. After seeing his success I now regret why I didn't start investing Bitcoin with him.
But I am following his investment approach and investing in Bitcoin and I hope to continue to do so in the future.

I don't see anything wrong if Bitcoin investors start investing in Bitcoin with a small amount of money and expect big from that investment. If you don't have hope in investing then how can you dream of success even that day. If you don't have a lot of money, you have to be content with what you have and hope for it. 

In the field of investment, it is not said anywhere that an investor has to start investing with a huge amount of money rather he can start his investment with minimum amount of money according to everyone's ability. It's not like I started investing with a relatively small amount of money so my investment will stay the same for a long time. 

You can increase your investment in Bitcoin and sell it whenever you want, there is no obligation. If an investor thinks that he starts investing with a small amount of money and later sells his investment at will, and when he continues to invest for a long time, his investment will be sufficient and he must expect good things from that substantial investment.
You may believe in the investment principle that you have to invest a lot in the beginning and then you don't increase your investment later. 

It is difficult to accumulate a lot of money at once, when you have cash you will need it a lot and you can spend your money when you need it but if you invest in Bitcoin you will not spend that money. So it is always a better decision for an investor to invest in Bitcoin when the amount of money is available rather than accumulating cash over a long period of time.

Perhaps you were inspired by CZ who quit his job, sold his house to invest in Bitcoin. Remember he advised that getting another job would not have been difficult for him. So, I guess you figured out how to survive without a job and still hold Bitcoin.

So tell me, since you were all in in crypto, how were you paying your bills? Were you selling part of your portfolio to feed and pay bills? What method did you adopt in accumulating your assets? I am asking as the time the price of Bitcoin was not up to the $45k where you sold, meaning you were selling in parts to feed and also pay your bills.

Your approach is not perfect for me because I don't believe in selling all my Bitcoin holding at once. You will definitely lose a good portion of the profits you would have made. Imagine you sold at $45k yet the price went higher to $69k. If I am not mistaken, most of the funds you realized from selling your Bitcoin have been channeled to shitcoins or other things.

The best would have been to sustain your  job and invest in Bitcoin gradually and not with all you've got only to sell them all off at once.

To be specific,  what are the risk factors of Bitcoin? Losing your money to hacks and mistakes or Bitcoin price dropping to zero? I have heard so much about the risk of Bitcoin, so much that we need to put it into context so others will understand and take caution. Unfortunately, a lot of people singing about the risk of Bitcoin cannot specifically say what the risks are and the highest they will say is that Bitcoin is volatile and therefore risky. Do we really have to worry about Bitcoin being volatile when we are considering how to buy and HODL?

I know that everything in life comes with some form of risk and Bitcoin is not exempted but magnifying the risk of Bitcoin in a discussion that focuses on holding for long is inappropriate because Bitcoin so far seem like a safer investment for a long time view. Most of the risk associated with Bitcoin affect those looking for quick profits like many people already stated here.

As an intending investor in bitcoin, you would considered the risk factor before having the mindset of investing in bitcoin, bitcoin is a very sensitive investment that needs careful minds to scrutinize before the actual event, some people mistake bitcoin for another stuff that's why most people are not getting want they want in bitcoin, when you invest, just know that there are two things ahead either to withdraw or to continue which I know that know one will stop you from doing that, this is the reason why I always preach about individuals investing with what they have, don't borrow to entice anyone here or to make people believe that you can do it, just work with what you can afford to control and hold if you can.

Of curse this wasn't want I meant but as reply to what the previous poster said, and that is to say that bitcoin isn't a quick get rich scheme where one would invest and double their money instantly. We all know that bitcoin investment needs patient and for that anyone who is engaging themselves into bitcoin investment must choose the plans to invest on, be it short term or long term but must be focused and remain patient for each every investment to get into maturity.

And any digital investment that has a total of $100k as you said and $10k in bitcoin isn't secure investment maybe if such person is having $90k into altcoin shows that there is every likelihood for such investment to collapse since altcoin can't be trusted and who knows if those coin are shitcoin whereby they rise to some certain point falls back without yielding any further interest, or profits for the period of holding, all less if such investment & bitcoin carrying about 90 percent and the rest 10 percent for other altcoin investment then we can say is a secure investment.

That is what @Obim is trying to say; he is not disputing the fact that an investor needs to cut his soap according to his size and buy what he can affect. It is obvious that an investor with a total portfolio of bitcoin worth $10k, if held for the long term and there has been an increase in the price, will not be expecting the same amount of profit as an investor who made an investment of $100k in the same period. As much as an investment is low, we shouldn't expect massive returns unless the investment is high.

And we shouldn't be propelled by ROI; that may now be a criteria to make us invest aggressively, thereby neglecting other needs. It would affect those who have families, unless there are single people who can aggressively buy bitcoin sometimes and adjust their monthly expenses to the little amount left. At least they can handle it since they are still single any consequences would be managed all alone

It is true that trying to make quick money by predicting the market can be dangerous and similar to gambling. But if you look at Bitcoin in the long run investors might be able to gain from its overall growth and stability over time.

Exactly you are right people who bought Bitcoin earlier this year and kept it have probably made a lot of money compared to those who sold it when the price went up recently. Also there is halving event that will going to happen soon and that could make the price of Bitcoin go up even more in the future.

Investors should think carefully about what they want to achieve with their money and how much risk they can afford with before deciding what to do with Bitcoin. It might be tempting to try and make quick money but thinking about the long-term can be a better way to make more money and feel less worried.

Every investor should invest according to what will not have a negative impact on their finance and disrupt their daily life. No amount invested in Bitcoin is small as per say it all depends on what you can afford. Moreover Bitcoin has the ability of transforming whatever amount invested into 2x, 3x 4x etc. Instead of waiting for when big money will come to start investing in Bitcoin and miss out due to procastnation it is better to start now and invest any amount no matter how small it may be.
 

It was a good experience for him, but not for me.
I quit my job since 2020 because i believe crypto can feed me well. honestly i can hold up to 2 years only with my crypto holding.
But thing is not easy even bitcoin already break all time high because i short my btc at 45k till liqudated. i don't why i did that.
And Now i am sure that trading is not my thing

Actually, what they did was not wrong, but they didn't invest again after that. Indeed, they can make a profit, but it is not as big as if they continued to invest their money in Bitcoin regularly. But if they can hold their bitcoins for the long term, the profits might be big.

Although the market benefits whales, we can also use it to our advantage. As long as we can invest regularly like the whale, we will also gain profits in the future. But most people don't want to go through the process because they see the process is very long. They want instant results, which cannot always happen.

If more people wanted to invest their money in Bitcoin regularly, there would be more investors who would have a strong hand in holding Bitcoin. The negative news will not shake them because they are confident in holding Bitcoin. They wait for the time to sell their bitcoins and make big profits.

People tend to make the mistake of investing little amount of money into buying  Bitcoin and lay their hope on getting huge profit within a limited time frame forgetting the higher amount invested the greater your profits.
The DCA has made it very easier for small investors to venture into the market and still make profit, despite the DCA approach being a long term strategy but you don't blame oneself as not being efficient enough to buy in bulk. Of a truth the market is most favorable to whales as a 10% up in price is already giving them good profits per what they invested.

I doubt that we should be thinking about bitcoin in those kinds of ways of getting rich quick, even though bitcoin may well be amongst the best of investments... but if we are seeking to get rich quick and identify that kind of investment, then we may well end up getting lured into shitcoins.. and maybe that is not what you were trying to say... but it surely can be quite challenging for anyone to figure out how to identify good things to invest into, and bitcoin is available to an overwhelming number of normies.. but on the surface, bitcoin might not seem sexy enough.. as compared to some shitcoin.. so it seems that your way of framing the whole matter is a bit luring towards chasing around get rich quick schemes rather than seeing the value of bitcoin right in front of us that may or may not result in great appreciation of value in a short time.. even though we likely can see a lot of aspects of bitcoin that could cause it to 10x to 20x from here and not really end up correcting back down in any kind of meaningful way.. but we still cannot count on those kinds of things.

If we have $100k in our investment portfolio, and we currently have 10% in bitcoin (so $10k in bitcoin), then maybe we might choose to become more aggressive in regards to our bitcoin allocation... perhaps? perhaps?

If we are brand new to investing, and maybe we have $10k in bitcoin and $5k in various forms of cash.. and are there ways to be more aggressive?  We still might not be rich, even if our bitcoin investment goes up 20x from $10k to $200k.. so I am not suggesting that I know the answer since each of us needs to make these kinds of balances from our own perspective (accounting for our finances and our psychology.. and of course other related personal considerations, including the 9 that I listed in my other post).


Yeah, but why do you need to go there?

I already described pretty good situations with Hypo 1 and 2, with hypo 1 having an average cost per BTC of $750 and hypo 2 having an average cost per BTC around $1,130, so there is no need to even make the problem easier by suggesting that they bought at the bottom of various earlier time periods.  Even if we go back 10 years from now, we still have BTC prices in the area of $1k per BTC, even though there was a dip in BTC prices for the next few years...

So why?

Why have to fantasize about getting even lower prices?

Yeah of course, there are people who are way better off than those in hypothetical 1 and 2, but if we are trying to address questions regarding when the dilemmas exist in regards to whether it is worth it to continue to accumulate BTC and what circumstances might trigger desires to accumulate more BTC, even if you already have a lot of BTC, the 6 hypotheticals already show differences in the levels of dilemmas that any of them might have, and if we get into situations that are even better than hypothetical 1 and 2, are we being realistic in terms of considering whether or not they might have dilemmas? 

Sure the ones who are even better off than hypothetical 1 and 2 still might have dilemmas, but they are not the kinds of realistic dilemmas of broader levels of appeal or anything that newbies to bitcoin or those who might have ONLY been in bitcoin for a few years should be feeling any needs  to fantasize about situations that currently are not even close to being in front of them.  They likely have to pass through variations of hypothetical 1 through 6 (in reverse order) before they are even close to being in those kinds of higher fantasy levels..

It is pretty doubtful that investing into bitcoin as aggressively as possible, even with investing a million dollars right now is going to get you close to the same levels of bitcoin that the ones who are better off than hypothetical 1 and 2 are facing.. so right now a million dollars is going to get you right around 23.5 BTC... so it could be a bit of a challenge to catch up to any of those in hypothetical 1 and 2 and even though there are abilities to get close to those in hypotheticals 3 through 5,.. but with way more upfront capital invested..

But even someone investing $100k right now into bitcoin will have had to struggle a lot more than the person in hypothetical 6, since the one in hypothetical 6 ONLY had to put $26k into his bitcoin investment over the past 5 years, and maybe the person in hypothetical 6 might not have had been in a position to invest more aggressively than the $100 per week that he was able to invest over the past 5 years.... so such a person would never be able to come up with $100k to invest into bitcoin even though his current BTC stash is getting to those levels of valuation...and he continues to buy $100 per week and to consider ways to increase his investment amount by increasing his income and/or reducing his expenses.


I would not consider coming up with $85k right now in order to buy 2 BTC to be small capital.. and sometimes a person who invests over so much time, is way more empowered by having had spent that time.. even if the amount ended up ONLY being $100 per week, but maybe that could have had been as aggressive as he was able to be over the last 5 years... and yeah, maybe a person who is ONLY investing $10 per week is only at 0.2 BTC (valued at $8,500) after 5 years, but if that is as much as he is able to invest, then he is still quite a bit better off by investing into bitcoin rather than not doing so.. as long as he is able to safeguard his investment so he does not end up losing it.


Maybe, we cannot really know their circumstances, but you might be correct that it makes sense for them to keep building their stash, but if the are already getting into their 60s, they might be at a point where they are not really able to continue to build their stash and might have to consider ways to start to transition into either maintaining and/or even selling portions of their BTC stash to support or to supplement their living.


Fair enough.


You are correct Litzki1990.. it is very challenging to get rich, or get to fuck you status through various traditional means, and there has to be some kind of investments or even business related matters that end up way out performing regular investments.

Before I got into bitcoin, for more than 20 years, I had been using regular methods to accumulate wealth and those various investments performed on average about 5.5% per year, and they had some good years and bad years and really, I am calculating that performance in nominal wealth (and/or nominal appreciation) rather than in real terms, which would account for how the dollar debased during those more than 20 years.. .without bitcoin, those traditional investments have continued to perform in similar ways, even though in the past few years, it seems that the debasing of the dollar did end up going way higher (which is something that people of other currencies are more used to, but yeah even the dollar is getting debased more rapidly, which it still has the advantage of being the strongest of all the fiats.. which is not really saying a lot for the whole systems perilous status).

In other words, it seems more and more and more important to either put some money in bitcoin or to retain some of your value in bitcoin... even if you have plans to cash out some of the price appreciation of your BTC at various points as it goes up (if it goes up), and so therefore, you have to consider how many BTC are you willing to give up when you do end up selling at various points on the way up.. .and will you get them back.. perhaps yes, perhaps no, depending on how much you sell and at what points, so needs  to be careful in terms of calculating any of the various selling on the way up techniques, especially if you do not have a lot of coins, yet.


It sounds like you are trying to make excuses for the guy who sells too many BTC too early, and yeah, he may have regrets, and maybe he needs to invest an amount that is workable for him and not putting himself into stress by having so much of his value in bitcoin?

None of us can tell the solutions for anyone else, and so each person has to decide for himself how to balance his various 9 factors in regards to figuring out how much BTC he is able to buy on a regular basis and then the various timelines for managing those holdings in light of other investments that he might have..


Yeah, but even the person who might have had been struggling to buy $10 to $50 per week for many years may well end up in a very good position if the BTC price goes shooting up at various points during the BTC accumulation journey.

Sometimes the BTC price goes shooting up and it does not correct back down, and other times, the BTC price goes shooting up and it corrects back down, so it sometimes can be difficult to figure out the extent to which profits had been made or if the UPward BTC price move ended up being something that was not going to correct.


Ok.  that is something similar to what I am saying above too.. because we cannot really be sure whenever some kind of an upward price move will happen and no subsequent correction...and it is not even guaranteed to happen, even though we can look at bitcoin's investment thesis remaining strong and not really getting any weaker with the passage of time.

If the price of bitcoin can rise the next day, they can obviously get very lucky and sell it. But that's very difficult right now, especially as prices move wildly and are difficult to predict. Small investors can still buy bitcoin today, hold it for a few days, and sell it if the price is a few days later. Otherwise, they could keep holding it for the next few days.

If you analyze before buying bitcoin, it is not gambling. But if you buy without analysis, it is gambling. However, if you are able to hold it until the price rises, you will still make a profit. But you have to be patient.

Even for myself, I don't target quick profits in the investments I have made because I put in an amount that may be small enough for them but not too small for me. Maybe that's the example where I target investment in the long term so a small increase will not see a profit in my portfolio but at some point in the future I think I will see a larger percentage in profit and that may be decades in the future.

It's quite right as you say because if big investors can buy 2 BTC or 5 BTC at once then they will see quite a profit if the BTC increase is above 5%>. Even if we bought $10 in Bitcoin when the price was $15k and now it is $42k then we have seen quite a significant profit in our investment but that is according to the capital we put down. For the long term, it may not be possible to calculate the increase in the short term because the target could be an investment made for in the next 10 years.

Quick profits in Bitcoin sound to be almost an impossible thing to achieve for small bitcoin investors,  majority of those who benefits from Bitcoin price sudden increase are thise who buy a whole bags, those are the whales whi can buy Bitcoin i several units, sime time like 4 Bitcoins or above, that way, whatever the percentage of the price increase, you definitely have good amount as profits turn out.

Long term approach is the best for mostly small Bitcoin investors those that buy small amounts of sats and hold for a long before selling and at the same time accumulate more Bitcoin while making good use of the DCA tools to gain long-term benefits.

Time and profits the key words that dominated your submission are for those not planning to hold for long and that is at variance with the title of the thread. The thread is more of building a Bitcoin portfolio and the various suggestions and discussion are focused on effective ways of doing this.

To realise quick profit in Bitcoin, one can be so lucky to buy today and the next day the price rise giving unimaginable profits.  The reverse can also be the case and the result could be a huge loss. In reality, this is pure gambling which can be avoided by simply adopting the long term perspective.

I still feel that long term approach give bigger profits in addition to less stress. Those bought Bitcoin early part of the year and refused to sell might have seen good profits now far more than those who sold when the bull run started. Those they will hold into next year following the halving might even see more.

There may be a closely look on the situation that may have warrant for him to have make such statement, we should believe that so many people started well but along the line couldn't push on to continue because of their presents challenge, life is not what is fix itself, we made decision today to find out that tomorrow we cannot longer continue in that due to the things we are having encounter with.

The first aspect may be through his financial challenge, we cannot say maybe he has tried all means to ensure a steady flow of income that could be sustainable for his DCA but couldn't achieve any difference, some may be their personal decision, family influence or any others related obstacles that can make an investor to quit DCA or even sell his asset completely which he hodl.