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Topic: Cairnsmore1 - Quad XC6SLX150 Board - page 127. (Read 286370 times)

legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
April 28, 2012, 04:07:58 PM
#48
It's true boards could be used for some other purpose probably a processing task. However as this boardis cost optimised this will restrict usage to very similar processing tasks.

Will this be an open board, i.e. will community developed bitstreams be relatively straight forward?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Inactive
April 28, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
#47
The -2 and -3N are similar prices. If you don't need memory controller the main advantage of the -3N is that it offers slight better I/O speeds. However the logic delay which is a bit part of Bitcoin speed is the same between the -3N and -2. So for some applications the -3N might be slightly better but I don't think so for Bitcoin. Not anything worth talking about at least.

Our choice is based on the volume we use -2 at in other products. We would pay a lot more for the -3N and our board would be dearer if we used that for little or no performance improvement. When customers get hold of our board I am sure results will be on the forum within hours and we will see how close my experience is. There is far more to be gained in areas other than speed grades that I would think about first.

As I understand it, a bitstream and controller script would be needed.  I've seen no well known community members who have this specific experience needed voice their intention to get this would-be board up and mining.

Can someone please provide some useful comments regarding bitstream and controller script for the proposed board.

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
April 28, 2012, 01:35:03 PM
#46
We will look at mtgox or even Bitcoins directly but we are newbies in this market so we start with what we are already good at i.e. making boards and using payment systems we that have used for years. We are aware these payment systems might be an issue to some people in Bitcoin community so it will get looked at.

Easiest option is Bitpay.  You set prices in price the in dollars, Bitpay shopping card allows payment in BTC (calculated in realtime).  Customer pays in Bitcoins, Bitpay pays you in dollars.  You take no currency or conversion risk.  If you want $650 per board you get $650 per board and customer still gets to pay in Bitcoins.

https://bit-pay.com/
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 251
April 28, 2012, 01:31:13 PM
#45
As I didn't say it the end of the year sounds about right for Artix. We do know more but are under NDA so there is a limit on what I can say.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
April 28, 2012, 12:39:09 PM
#44
Good info, thanks. And I might as well ask, although no one else seems to have any info on Artix 7, do you as a large manufacturing joint have any other info? I think that is one of the most anticipated devices, although it sounds like it will be rather late.

At the X-Fest on Thursday Xilinx reps said that Artix will be available at the end of the year - however, who knows whether this is a fact or just BFL-style wishful thinking.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
April 28, 2012, 12:34:34 PM
#43
The -2 and -3N are similar prices. If you don't need memory controller the main advantage of the -3N is that it offers slight better I/O speeds. However the logic delay which is a bit part of Bitcoin speed is the same between the -3N and -2. So for some applications the -3N might be slightly better but I don't think so for Bitcoin. Not anything worth talking about at least.

Our choice is based on the volume we use -2 at in other products. We would pay a lot more for the -3N and our board would be dearer if we used that for little or no performance improvement. When customers get hold of our board I am sure results will be on the forum within hours and we will see how close my experience is. There is far more to be gained in areas other than speed grades that I would think about first.
Good info, thanks. And I might as well ask, although no one else seems to have any info on Artix 7, do you as a large manufacturing joint have any other info? I think that is one of the most anticipated devices, although it sounds like it will be rather late.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 251
April 28, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
#42
The -2 and -3N are similar prices. If you don't need memory controller the main advantage of the -3N is that it offers slight better I/O speeds. However the logic delay which is a bit part of Bitcoin speed is the same between the -3N and -2. So for some applications the -3N might be slightly better but I don't think so for Bitcoin. Not anything worth talking about at least.

Our choice is based on the volume we use -2 at in other products. We would pay a lot more for the -3N and our board would be dearer if we used that for little or no performance improvement. When customers get hold of our board I am sure results will be on the forum within hours and we will see how close my experience is. There is far more to be gained in areas other than speed grades that I would think about first.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
April 28, 2012, 12:11:32 PM
#41
I will mention the -3N grade. It is a runt grade, and very misleading, that Xilinx created because they had a die yield issue on memory controllers in S6. It should have been called -2N because most of the guaranteed specs are the same as -2. I think the clock tree is virtually the only one the same as -3. So our competitors selling -3N are probably not any faster than the -2 we are currently using.
OK so let me ask - since -3N is a runt, is it cheaper than -2? Mining doesn't use a whole lot of memory, so if the -3N grade has bad memory but is as fast as -3 and cheaper than -2, it makes sense to use it I would think. Or am I way off base here?
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
BitMinter
April 28, 2012, 09:41:40 AM
#40
This is the best FPGA for Bitcoin right now.

Which FPGA are you talking about ? I can't see any ! I prefer guys like ngzhang and ztex building and testing a product first, then come here to advertise and sell it.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
April 28, 2012, 09:30:23 AM
#39
So if Bitcoin goes down, these boards can be reused for something else ? or resold for atleast half price of manufacturing cost £200 ? Am I correct ?

I found FPGA boards very useful as back scratchers but as always YMMV !

This is the best FPGA for Bitcoin right now.

I still say wait for Lancelot and also the mystery FPGA that matthewh3 is touting !
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 251
April 28, 2012, 07:15:38 AM
#38
It's true boards could be used for some other purpose probably a processing task. However as this boardis cost optimised this will restrict usage to very similar processing tasks.

As to value that is only what someone else will pay. As yet there isn't any significant trading in second user FPGA boards so it's hard to say what value there might be. Also whilst FPGAs have a long production life there tends to be a replacement family every 2-3 years that is faster and bigger and that usually devalues the previous family to some degree. This is probably not as extreme as a GPU devaluation but it's a fact of life.

You might ask the same question of something like the BFL processors where there is almost no chance of reuse unless some technical details appear aboput the insides of them.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
April 28, 2012, 06:07:53 AM
#37
So if Bitcoin goes down, these boards can be reused for something else ? or resold for atleast half price of manufacturing cost £200 ? Am I correct ?
hero member
Activity: 556
Merit: 500
April 28, 2012, 02:57:12 AM
#36
decided to place my order with these guys instead of getting a bfl mini rig. I hope I choose right!
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 251
April 28, 2012, 01:41:58 AM
#35
The speed that a FPGA will run at highly depends on the designer of the logic and the tools that synthesis, map and place and route the design. As such the only absolute thing you can say until a design is built and tested are the guaranteed specs from Xilinx. Those won't tell you how fast a design will run only speciified timing guarantees of various elements. Now most Bitcoins already push FPGAs, GPUs etc. beyond specification already so you all know that specification doesn't tell you everything.

For not so light reading look at http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds162.pdf and you can follow some of the following. if you head starts hurting do feel free to stop reading.I will mention a few things that might be of interest but bear in mind the paragraph above.

Starting with the clock tree specification in -2 is 375MHz max, -3 is 400MHz, -3N is 400MHz. That is the limit specification most logic won't run as fast as that as there routing delay, maybe multiple lut delays, all between registers. So what is actual the difference between the grades. It's not the limit spec but actually a range that various with a bunch of batch related things. Xilinx don't make a -2 or -3 as such they make a XC6SLX150 die which is graded into speed grades. Die performance has a statistical link to where on a wafer (usually large round thing with hundreds or thousands or dies on it) a die is, the processing (slight variations), and even the starting raw wafer quality. Out of all that you get a pile of dies with performance that typically follows a statistical curve that looks like an inverted bathtub. Somewhere along that curve Xilinx has drawn some lines that create bands that are speed grades. Remember the profile shape most die will be close together on the big lumpy part of the curve and somewhere at the top of that lump is the line that seperates -2 from -3. Most of the -3 yield will be close to the top of the -2 yield area. It's then a matter of luck what end of the -2 grade you are in but statistically near the middle is likely.The -3 is very likely to be close to the top of -2. So out of this your -2 is highly likely to mid point between the the -2 limit and -3 limit and -3 chips is likelyto be on the -3 limit.

I will mention the -3N grade. It is a runt grade, and very misleading, that Xilinx created because they had a die yield issue on memory controllers in S6. It should have been called -2N because most of the guaranteed specs are the same as -2. I think the clock tree is virtually the only one the same as -3. So our competitors selling -3N are probably not any faster than the -2 we are currently using.

Ok now that your head is spining lets make that slight simplier. I will take one of the timing parameters Tilo from the datasheet which is the propagation through a LUT your basic building block and very important to Bitcoin logic speed. A -3 has 0.21nS max, -3N has 0.26nS max and -2 has 0.26nS max. Notice the -3N time. So from this an average -2 is likely to be 0.235nS and -3 0.26nS from what I said above. In reality they are probably closer but lets work with these numbers. That says a -2 is 90% of the speed of a -3 and yes the -3 is quicker. However for that 10% more you will pay 25-50% more for the chip typically. Now for Bitcoiners there is something more of relevance to say on this and it's from knowledge gained over many years and not a spec. Generally faster grade chips will burn more static power than the slow chip. In temperature limited Bitcoining that will either reduce the benefit of -3 speed or mean you spend more on electricity and cooling.

newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
April 27, 2012, 10:41:31 PM
#34
Sub!

Gorgeous idea, looking forward to some CAD renderings.

Out of curiosity, I've been mulling the idea of perhaps a hundred LX150s run by an ARM9 and stuck into a 1U pizza box chassis.  Pretty sure even an anemic ARM can handle a hundred 9600bps serial ports and an Ethernet connection to the outside world, and perhaps configuration via serial port for security...ideas?
mem
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 501
Herp Derp PTY LTD
April 27, 2012, 10:38:32 PM
#33
The FT4232 interface is physically a single USB but appears as 4 com ports on a PC. That's a com port per FPGA. There are a few other ways this interface can be used by com port way is simple.

Nice setup, placing my order Meow.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
April 27, 2012, 10:04:14 PM
#32
Question, Yohan.

What frquency do those -2 speed grade run at?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
April 27, 2012, 10:02:22 PM
#31
How are you able to produce these boards for such a low cost? Compared to ZTEX and the other alternatives.

I'd imagine some of the price differnce is related to mark up, or the lack there of.

subbed.
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
April 27, 2012, 09:57:55 PM
#30
watching
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 251
April 27, 2012, 06:01:29 PM
#29
The FT4232 interface is physically a single USB but appears as 4 com ports on a PC. That's a com port per FPGA. There are a few other ways this interface can be used by com port way is simple.
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