Can KNCMiner really deliver 28 nanometers? - page 8.

DPoS

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Quote from: Syke on June 11, 2013, 12:11:39 PM

Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 12:05:34 PM

You really think Orsoc is going to make rookie mistakes like that, like BFL made? Come on.

How much experience does Orsoc really have producing 28nm chips? I glanced around their website and the only chip I could find they designed was 180nm.

It's not just rookie mistakes. Designing state-of-the-art chips takes serious time. You don't just whip one up as a summer project.

did you skip my links?

Syke

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Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 12:05:34 PM

You really think Orsoc is going to make rookie mistakes like that, like BFL made? Come on.

How much experience does Orsoc really have producing 28nm chips? I glanced around their website and the only chip I could find they designed was 180nm.

It's not just rookie mistakes. Designing state-of-the-art chips takes serious time. You don't just whip one up as a summer project.

KS

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a quick read on the diffs between standard cell and structured ASICs.

http://www.edn.com/design/systems-design/4319891/The-economics-of-structured-and-standard-cell-ASIC-designs

Anenome5

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Quote from: af_newbie on June 11, 2013, 11:27:24 AM

Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 10:56:02 AM

Apparently the chips are in production right now. We know the design has been finalized. They then ship the chips to their PCB assembler and ...

Go back and do it again? Ask BFL how easy it is to go from FPGA to 65nm, so forget 28nm from KNC.

You really think Orsoc is going to make rookie mistakes like that, like BFL made? Come on.

DPoS

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Quote from: k9quaint on June 11, 2013, 11:40:10 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on June 11, 2013, 11:27:24 AM

Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 10:56:02 AM

Apparently the chips are in production right now. We know the design has been finalized. They then ship the chips to their PCB assembler and ...

Go back and do it again? Ask BFL how easy it is to go from FPGA to 65nm, so forget 28nm from KNC.

Ask http://orsoc.se/ how hard it is, apparently they have been working on it in parallel with KNCMiner developing the PCB and mining device.

this seems the path they took... I guess the easy button wasn't found by BFL

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/hardcopy-v/hcv-index.jsp

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

28nm was avilable in 2010 (probably more expensive than now)

k9quaint

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Quote from: af_newbie on June 11, 2013, 11:27:24 AM

Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 10:56:02 AM

Apparently the chips are in production right now. We know the design has been finalized. They then ship the chips to their PCB assembler and ...

Go back and do it again? Ask BFL how easy it is to go from FPGA to 65nm, so forget 28nm from KNC.

Ask http://orsoc.se/ how hard it is, apparently they have been working on it in parallel with KNCMiner developing the PCB and mining device.

af_newbie

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Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 10:56:02 AM

Apparently the chips are in production right now. We know the design has been finalized. They then ship the chips to their PCB assembler and ...

Go back and do it again? Ask BFL how easy it is to go from FPGA to 65nm, so forget 28nm from KNC.

Anenome5

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Quote from: MWNinja on June 11, 2013, 10:14:51 AM

If they had chips in hand now (like bitfury does) then I would say they might have products ready to ship in September. My hunch is that it will be early next year before they have chips.

Apparently the chips are in production right now. We know the design has been finalized. They then ship the chips to their PCB assembler and have lets say a few weeks to organize shipping. Seems doable. We're thinking in a time-frame that's likely much shorter than what these guys put together. They might've been working on this for a year and have long-range time commitments long-since setup, whereas we're only aware of the effort last few months tops, so it seems incredible that they're essentially pulling these out of a hat, but that may not be the case at all.

J35st3r

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Quote from: DPoS on June 11, 2013, 10:43:08 AM

what he said was that for jupiter/saturn they won't be using structured asic, this is a project to get out the door ASAP.

with all the great experts posting in these threads, I doubt you all even know all the ways to make an ASIC and the leadtimes.
I don't know either but I will guess that kncminer/orsoc does

Yeah, I admit I'm not an expert, though I was in the biz around 20 years ago, so the terminology is not unfamiliar. But there are some real experts on the forum, so perhaps one will be along shortly to give an opinion.

BTW HardCopy is indeed a very good option to get a project "out the door ASAP".

DPoS

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Quote from: J35st3r on June 11, 2013, 10:20:02 AM

Quote from: Syke on June 11, 2013, 09:57:31 AM

There's no way they'll finish up a 28nm miner by September.

Well, they might if they are going the HardCopy route (possibly intending to go full custom for second-gen). But that's been scotched by the email from Sam Cole posted above.

PS which "specific product" was he referring to? This might be a a little bit of fudge.

what he said was that for jupiter/saturn they won't be using structured asic, this is a project to get out the door ASAP.

with all the great experts posting in these threads, I doubt you all even know all the ways to make an ASIC and the leadtimes.
I don't know either but I will guess that kncminer/orsoc does

Everyone has to stop thinking that BFL/Avalon were experts and ignore a lot of what they tripped on.

J35st3r

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Quote from: Syke on June 11, 2013, 09:57:31 AM

There's no way they'll finish up a 28nm miner by September.

Well, they might if they are going the HardCopy route (possibly intending to go full custom for second-gen). But that's been scotched by the email from Sam Cole posted above.

PS which "specific product" was he referring to? This might be a a little bit of fudge.

MWNinja

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If they had chips in hand now (like bitfury does) then I would say they might have products ready to ship in September. My hunch is that it will be early next year before they have chips.

Syke

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Quote from: Anenome5 on June 11, 2013, 04:03:45 AM

Quote

If KNCMiner delivers 28 nm on the dates they've promised, I will buy a hat and eat it.
28 nm is state of the art for billion-dollar graphics card companies.

Thoughts?

It does seem awfully ambitious. Has Orsoc delivered 28 nm anything already?

There's no way they'll finish up a 28nm miner by September.

GigaWave

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Quote from: sikman on June 11, 2013, 06:05:42 AM

Personally don't care how small they get the chips down, I JUST WANT ONE NOW, even at 200nm, I need to mine before diff skyrockets...

You should know this by now, as the coming increase in difficulty has been covered quite extensively at this point and many new players have entered the game in the past 6 months. But I will digress. The Ship to give you a chance at looking like your avatar sailed about 7 months ago. At this point you will be lucky to break even within a year with likely any orders placed in the past few months.

af_newbie

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Re: Can KNCMiner really deliver 28 nanometers?

Sure Wink

They can even go pure-play while at it.

It is like learning computer programming for the first time; in binary Grin

Remember, first you have to walk before you run.

blastbob

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For those who is interested.

kevcoins

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Quote from: sikman on June 11, 2013, 06:05:42 AM

Personally don't care how small they get the chips down, I JUST WANT ONE NOW, even at 200nm, I need to mine before diff skyrockets...

Sorry no next day delivery, I wish they were..

sikman

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Personally don't care how small they get the chips down, I JUST WANT ONE NOW, even at 200nm, I need to mine before diff skyrockets...

suryc

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Play2Live pre-sale starts on January 25th

Quote from: J35st3r on June 11, 2013, 05:14:31 AM

But its been hinted that KNCMiner are doing a 28nM Structured ASIC, ie a HardCopy(tm) of an Altera FPGA design. That's much cheaper in up-front cost (the mask set is just the metalization/vias so much cheaper), but the per-unit cost is higher. It won't perform anything like a full custom ASIC.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2433194 (and subsequent posts).

Yup, they've hinted that in the Open Days and it seems OrSoc has some experience with that:
http://opencores.org/forum,OpenRISC%20-%20ASIC%20Funding,0,5039

J35st3r

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But its been hinted that KNCMiner are doing a 28nM Structured ASIC, ie a HardCopy(tm) of an Altera FPGA design. That's much cheaper in up-front cost (the mask set is just the metalization/vias so much cheaper), but the per-unit cost is higher. It won't perform anything like a full custom ASIC.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2433194 (and subsequent posts).

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